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Original poster

Is the Christian God's love unconditional?

902 replies

Woolmark · 20/11/2013 19:57

Ok, some questions which have been playing on my mind, I am genuinely interested.

Surely his love is on the condition that you are a) a Christian and b) follow his rules?

Also, if God loves everyone as much as he does, why can't he save everyone by simply appearing to them? If I could save my children by doing this then I would in an instant, rather than turning up at the end and destroying the ones who weren't Christian.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 29/11/2013 02:31

Hettie you know God created time too.

Not everyone reads the Bible as word for word literal.

Italiangreyhound · 29/11/2013 02:34

Back you said Most Christians these days have abandoned the bible because they know it can't be defended and just treat it as poetry. I wonder where you get that idea from?

Just because we do not all take it literally word for word does not mean we don't take it seriously.

Must go to bed, lovely to see everyone still talking. It amazes me we all want to talk to each other even though we all have such different view.s. I think it is wonderful. Smile

headinhands · 29/11/2013 04:51

Sunshine. Everything you think you've learnt about god you've actually learnt from people.

HettiePetal · 29/11/2013 06:57

Hettie you know God created time too

No, I don't know any such thing. And this has nothing to do with the point I was going to make any way.

Not everyone reads the Bible as word for word literal

I never said they do. But the person I was addressing my remarks to clearly does Hmm

I think that people who claim that God is outside of time/created time/is eternal have not the vaguest idea of the implications in such a statement.

It sounds very deep & interesting - but actually it's illogical, impossible and comes extremely close to disproving the Christian God altogether.

Christians who actually understood what they were saying when they say this would probably stop saying it Wink

BackOnlyBriefly · 29/11/2013 09:35

Hi all, can't stop right now, but Italiangreyhound I realise you still believe in god. Perhaps you can explain to the others why a literal word for word reading of the bible just won't work and why there was no actual Adam & Eve.

Hettie, let's give "proof of Jesus" a half hour slot on the BBC 7 nights a week. I'd like the whole world to see it.

The other 29 minutes they can show that old clip of a potter making a clay pot.

sunshine401 · 29/11/2013 12:23

Of course god is out of time he is eternity. When we do not belive we will not understand, that is the whole Point being stuck in time it is hard to understand.
God speaks through the bible as it is his word. You may not belive it and that's a choice does not mean that I don't.
Just because someone does not belive in something does not mean it is not real just as you can say to me just because I belive it does not mean its real. It is real to me.

BackOnlyBriefly · 29/11/2013 13:40

Sunshine, not only do I not believe it but most Christians now don't believe it. Some believe parts of the bible, but not that it's all literally true.

It's hard to get statistics as there are nearly as many varieties of christianity as there are christians, but most Christians I speak to get offended if I even suggest that they think the bible is the literal word of god. This is a relatively recent change. Gradually over perhaps the last century, but with most of the changes in the last 50 years or less.

Evolution is now mostly accepted, with many/most Christians saying that there was no Adam or Eve, but that god probably created the first microbes and set evolution in motion. Most Christians accept that the earth is billions of years old because they know they can't argue with the science.

Of course as I've said before you are right in a way to stick to the original story. Once you give up on evolution and admit to no Adam & Eve then the whole original sin story is undermined. Without that what do you have?

btw on the subject of the existence of Jesus. Others have explained that the evidence is non-existent and that is the case. If there were proof it would be displayed in 6ft letters outside every church in the world. At best you can prove that at some point after his supposed death there were christians of some kind. But that's not disputed. After all I can prove that believers in scientology exist.

Personally I don't mind if a man called Jesus existed or not.

As I understand it there were a number of preachers at the time and some vanished without a trace and some got lucky. If things had gone another way you might be calling yourself Johnians or Simonians. As it is Paulian would probably be a better name as he pretty much founded the church and he never even met Jesus.

capsium · 29/11/2013 13:58

To me The Bible works at all levels.

Literal and symbolic and everything in-between. This is because I believe there is symbolism in life.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He uses analogy (to speak Truth) with the parables, also symbolism is used in prophesy. We can make analogies between Biblical events and our own lives. Even the numbers used have extra spiritual meaning attached.

Language itself, in it's etymology and current usage, employs symbolism.

The Spiritual manifests into the physical in the same ways, time and time again. I see Biblical symbolism at play in my own life and the world around me.

However, yes I do believe the events described in The Bible actually happened.

I don't know whether that makes me a literalist or not...

sunshine401 · 29/11/2013 14:05

To say most Christian is very wrong. Being a christian in itself is to belive the word of god.
Just because someone claims they are Christian does not make it true.

The saying going to church does not make you a Christian, just as sitting in a garage does not make you a car. Fits well I think.

sunshine401 · 29/11/2013 14:10

God can do awesome things, hence looking at the bible in a human minded view it would seem impossible. Anything is possible when god has control

headinhands · 29/11/2013 14:25

Got any examples of his awesomeness Sunshine?

1919 · 29/11/2013 14:32

Sunshine401 You have little, if not no empirically based evidence for your claims about the nature of the universe and God. It's speculation.You're just believing what you want to believe because you want to.
I think it's ludicrous and pretty arrogant to say that only people who believe in your interpretation of the Christian God can access and understand the bible and it's message correctly.
How do you know that your interpretation and your worldview is correct when so many others of differing opinion are equally as convinced that they are right?

We can only read the bible from a human perspective. The bible was written by humans so if what you are saying is correct then surely you can't accept their writing as infallible?

1919 · 29/11/2013 14:34

Or your own interpretation of their writings for that matter.

capsium · 29/11/2013 14:36

I don't believe in empiricism...

capsium · 29/11/2013 14:41

John Locke began this idea did he not? That all knowledge is derived from experience?

capsium · 29/11/2013 14:44

What about sociobiology, evolutionary psychology in terms of how the mind is understood?

1919 · 29/11/2013 14:45

Empirical evidence is not the same as empiricism. You don't have to 'believe' in it entirely but I think it's shown to be fairly useful method for advancement of understanding, more so than faith anyway.

capsium · 29/11/2013 14:50

I wouldn't be so sure. Faith has to be present for us to pursue knowledge in anything. We would not be able to even make decisions and plan for the future without assumptions, which are a form of faith.

capsium · 29/11/2013 14:53

In fact I would ask you how you can say there is certain knowledge of anything. Since everything known, from the empirical method, can be superseded at any time, once new data comes to light.

And has been, many times in the past...

sunshine401 · 29/11/2013 15:00

The bible is the word of god. God created the world awesome, god sent his son down to die for my sins awesome yet again, it enables me to have a Personal relationship with Jesus again awesome. The gift of my family, the gift of love I could go for ever.

capsium · 29/11/2013 15:07

We can only read the bible from a human perspective.

Christians get revelation of the Bible from the Holy Spirit.

1919 · 29/11/2013 15:13

I disagree. Of course it would not be practical to base all my actions on sound evidence so I make assumptions based on analogy, on the experience of trusted others (scientists, specialists etc) and my understanding of how the world around me operates at that point in time. I'm aware that I cannot always be universally correct but I'm using the tools I have available to me and I've found it's generally quite useful to do so. I am not simply making a 'leap of faith'.
The difference with religious faith is that the analogy is very weak. We have experience of the natural world, not the supernatural. I do not doubt that we are limited in our abilities.

I never said that there is or can be certain knowledge of everything or anything. I do not know this.

sunshine401 · 29/11/2013 15:13

Not just Christians. When I look back I can clearly see times that god was speaking to me and I just never listened. He wants us to listen to him because he loves us. We are his children.

capsium · 29/11/2013 15:16

1919 The world is natural and supernatural, since all that the supernatural consists of is things we cannot explain from what we know of the natural laws (which is a lot). So e all have experience of both but may not know just how much.

sunshine That is lovely.

capsium · 29/11/2013 15:17

^'we' not 'e' Typo