Baptising DCs: DH religious but I'm atheist

[whatwasIthinkingof]

Right, I have thought about this too long and need some perspective. DH is religious, I am atheist. DH wants new baby DC2 to be baptised into Catholic church. DC1 was baptised and I went along with it despite being uncomfortable about it. I spoke to the priest beforehand about what should I do as I am a non-believer and he just said I didn’t have to say anything and as DH is practising the religion it was fine. But I felt so uncomfortable at DC1’s baptism staying silent whilst the priest asked us if we renounce the devil and all that stuff. I felt horribly fraudulent standing there even though I’d been honest, - because basically I am meant to be happy about it.

The issue is that I hate the idea that the kids will be told what to believe and have no choice about whether to go to church. I don’t hate religion, think there are some good aspects to it i.e. morality, community, I just don’t believe in the magic type stuff. DH is very serious about it and will make the kids attend, get confirmed and all the rest of it (this sounds awful but DH is actually an amazing father in a lot of ways).

I feel very torn as I want to be there at DC2 baptism and be part of it as I want us to be united in family occasions like this, BUT, I don’t believe it myself so feel unbelievably uncomfortable standing there at the front feeling so conflicted. I don’t know what to do about it. If I refuse for DC2 to be baptised, DH will probably go and do it anyway without me as it’s so important to him. Also I feel I should because I went along with it for DC1 so why not this time.

The godparents we have chosen both times are really nice people but
are more DH’s friends. I went along with it as it was so important to DH and it felt like such a non-negotiable. Kind of feel like I have no part in this baptism. Find it hard to talk to DH about religion as he is quite rigid about it, he will just say that I have rejected religion so it’s me that’s turned my back.

Before we got married we talked about how we would bring up children and I was honest about my own lack of religious faith and DH said he would not compromise on his beliefs and would want any kids to be brought up in his faith. We reached a bit of a stalemate on the whole issue and as I was unsure whether we would be able to have any children I didn’t think much more about it, - wrong of me I know. But, 2 lovely children later, this problem has reared its ugly head and I feel really sad and hopeless about it. I feel I am making a lot of sacrifices for something actually quite big and I feel I won’t be able to protect my children from being told to believe this stuff. I feel that DH has compromised on a lot for our life but on this issue he is not willing to compromise.

Do I just have to suck it up and accept that this is what happens if you marry someone who has such strong religious beliefs? Have I inadvertently agreed to it as I have gone along with it before? Is there anything I can do that might make me feel better about it? I have no one to talk to about this as family and friends are either deeply on one side or the other and I don’t know anyone else in a similar situation to talk things through with. Realise I’m asking a lot of MN but my brain hurts!

Peggy you can celebrate Christmas as a secular event while rejecting the claims of Christianity. There's a big difference between a non Christian putting up a Christmas tree and a religious parent telling a child that Jesus was real and half man/half god.

And as someone else pointed out, while it seems reasonable to say 'it's great for them to be exposed to other ideas' the truth is, if we choose to accept a religion it's almost always the religion of our parent/culture. I'm happy for my children to learn about religion but in a unbiased, analytical way. Unfortunately in the uk all schools are required to provide worship in assemblies and being the uk the religion they are exposed to will be Christianity. The worship will not be analytical in nature. I balance this out by modelling critical thinking outside of school when they are presented with any claims.

There is, of course, the fact the it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that children should be christened. It's purely custom that dictates that it should happen.

The only solution if you feel you can't tolerate someone else's view on faith is not to have a child with that parent.

Too late for OP and where does she go now? If they split the child will still grow up with parents with differing views on this anyway? My biggest fear would be the family focussing on the issue and the child being treated to a tug of war with child as the rope.

It is possible to hold different views and not impose them but observe them. To me being atheist is as conscious a decision as being 'any faith'. So for a person to insist atheism is imposed is as wrong as me imposing my belief.

You need to talk about respecting each other's views

DH and I are atheists but DSSs mum is CofE. When she had them christened I was quite staggered when DH was planning to participate in the ceremony. I argued that we'd agreed never to lie to the kids and that participating in a religious service was a pretty epic lie. We sat with the congregation.

It mostly works ok, largely because his ex is a soft believer. I do find some brainwashing creeps in and have to point out facts now and then (eg. DSS1 was concerned there may be another Noah scale flood. I talked about climate change and the fact that we live in an area where there has been serious flooding) but it's manageable.

Depending on the age of OPs eldest child it might be best for OP not to participate. It can be Daddy's thing (we made a big deal of it being DSSs an Mummy's special day) and you can provide the balance later.

A catholic will adopt an atheist attitude to all other religions will they not? Is the op's husband taking the dc's along to sing songs about Allah in mosques every week too? If not he is displaying an atheism towards Islam.

Why not leave the baptism until they are old enough to decide in so called "mixed marriages"? Surely they can still go with a parent to see what's happening as and when and be fair to both pov?

Baptism doesn't make you a catholic. It is purely (IMO) an exercise for a parent. Important to some parents though so delaying just upsets a strongly help belief and makes no difference to the faith or atheism of that child.

I don't think a parent should stand up and make vows they don't believe and have more respect for non participation than fake.

I don't think the religious soul of a child can be fought over or decided by one parent. Indoctrinating any child with your belief of a faith/atheism if you feel that strongly about either view is a bit odd...

I like your views TiredDog

Both parents influence a child's future beliefs. Youcan be active and honest in your belief, even where I contradicts your dOH's, while still respecting their belief. And as the child grows the au go through various beliefs - all of which are equally valid and true to them.

Maybe you think that a particular belief is mumbo-jumbo, or dishonest, or plain wrong. Then present your belief as another way of thinking, and give them the opportunity to think about it and make up their own minds.

You have a lifetime to influence them

Have not RTFT, but the baptising will not turn them into a catholic, when they're older, if they wish, they can renounce it/ become an atheist

surely then a child can be baptised later just as easily if they choose to believe?

Exactly saint.

But for some believers the rites are very important.

The rite does not change the child's freedom to make their own choices later on.

And BTW being a believer in god and or religion does not necessarily wipe out every brain cell and the ability to make decisions based upon empirical evidence. I, for one, believe in the existence of deity and also in evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The healthy respect for each others beliefs means that whilst I support dh taking ds to church every Sunday we will try to avoid catholic school so that he doesn't grow up in a single faith setting. Plus scientific discussion and a respect for each other's beliefs.

But I agree you need to make your peace weigh your partner's deeply held beliefs before marriage and children or move on before that life-long tie is there. Look on the bright side: if he takes then both to church every week that's 90 minutes of peace

It's not really the point of the thread but incidentally headinhands the Allah of Islam is the same god as the Christian (and indeed Jewish) God. And atheism strictly speaking means the belief that there is no god at all, not the rejection of another religion's god(s).

I think it's difficult to understand just how important this could be for the DP if you aren't religious. And I'd echo fridge in saying plenty of religious people of all faiths still believe in evolution and critical thought - in fact even the Catholic church encourages Catholics to make their own judgement on issues and teaches that they should never go against their own genuinely held conscience.

Having said that I do also think the OP is in a very difficult position and respect her need to be honest and maintain her integrity.

In my analogy you could use any of the other gods man has ever believed in (although I'm not sure the Allah is Yahweh and Yahweh is Allah belief is an idea most Christians/Muslims would go a bundle on.)

And atheism is the rejection of the claims of all other religions.

The point I was making was that a Christian will the same opinion of the other 1'999 religions as an atheist. They both reject their claims.

I understand your point about atheism headinhands, I just don't see things the same way. I think rejecting particular claims about the nature of God or revelation is different to rejecting claims about God's existence. But I see the analogy you're making.

I'm sure you're right that many Christians and Muslims sadly disagree that they worship the same God but many agree too. Plenty of Christians believe all sorts of things I'm heartily ashamed to be associated with, but I thought the commonality of the Abrahamic religions was a mainstream belief. I may be wrong though. There's far less room for dispute that Christians and Jews worship the same God surely? I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone of either faith refute that but perhaps I'm very sheltered

Sorry I've just seen you were only talking about Christians and Muslims disagreeing so ignore my comments on Judaism.

Actually there's a poster floating about here who was dabbling with the belief of the OT god actually being a demiurge, and that god didn't reveal himself until Jesus. Think the movement was Gnosticism?

Clearly I'm sheltered then I've never come across a gnostic. Must lurk around here more often!

Anyway, sorry op, bit of a tangent. Probably this debate has made you feel even less positive about religion!

if it is done when the child is a baby, it can't be brainwashed and it is just meaningless water throwing. Get it done quick while the child won't notice.

your bigger issue is your husband's apparent utter intolerance to any views except his own. He is of course perfectly entitled to his own beliefs.

Let him organise it but don't go. And as marriage is about respect and compromise, you need to ensure that your kids are brought up with tolerance of all faiths, and the freedom to make up their own minds.

if he won't do this you've got far bigger problems, so let's hope he shows what is called 'Christian charity'.

On the contrary: let him organise it, go, sit (stand?) at the front, but do not participate in any way. You are the mother and your views are equally valid, equally true and equally important.

At one of the earliest earliest services involving our dc, the religious leader said that we could not include dh because he was not the right religion. I said that in that case we could not include me, either. Our status WRT the child was not defined by religion but by the fact that he is the father and I am the mother. End of. Somewhat flummoxed them!

I have since found a more inclusive community where we practice our religion and include non-co-religionist partners in the way that they find comfortable. If they want to participate, then we find a way that they can participate. If they don't want to participate, then there is no pressure to do so, but we encourage them to at least be present as a parent. As is their right. But if they don't want to do even that, then we accept their decision.