Free Will as a Reason For God Allowing Evil?

[headinhands]

I used to be a Christian but I can't remember how the free will argument actually works. As a human, if I could stop someone doing something awful to a child, I would. Furthermore, if I knew someone had witnessed a rape they could have stopped I wouldn't think that person had acted morally. I fully expect people to intervene where they can to prevent bad things happening. If they said 'I don't want to affect their free will' I would find that deeply offensive. How come Christians find this logic acceptable?

Reading with interest.

Free will is something I am not sure anyone can get their heads round in its entirety. That and the opposite predestination.

I like niminy's metaphor. Stretching it a bit further, let's say you could design your own child - not just physically, but in the way they function emotionally, spiritually, mentally etc etc. Would you make them capable of love, of delight and joy, of appreciation of beauty, of caring about others? Surely these things could only be in their truest forms when the opposite were possible - so to experience the heights of joy the depths of sorrow highlight what that actually is. Or would you make them incapable of feeling pain or sorrow, but also incapable of experiencing joy and love?

Would it be possible to create them to love and to care deeply without there being pain and suffering? Can the highest form of love exist without the lowest form of pain?

I have no answers, but like the others, this informs some of my thinking. God made us in his image - and that means we are capable of such heights of experience - and such depths. Jesus was perfect yet experienced the very depths of suffering.

Would you make them capable of love, of delight and joy, of appreciation of beauty, of caring about others? Surely these things could only be in their truest forms when the opposite were possible

The opposite being bad stuff like not caring and hurting people? Is god capable of not caring? How come he is all good yet not capable of evil and yet we don't consider his experience of the highs inferior?

And some of this would be a problem with heaven wouldn't it ?
No concept of time, everything perfect, eternally praising God ?
Not sure it appeals, though would be better than a world of suffering I guess.
Just don't think it's likely really.
I think this is as good as it gets.
And can be pretty good at times if you're lucky, like most of us.

Headinhands - you can't know if god doesn't do the bad things. You can't know if god is responsible for the good things. You can't know if he negligible, powerless or doesn't care. You can't know if he is evil or good. You can't know which god is the governing god, if there are many or if there are none.

hih:generally parents don't give birth and then abandon their children into the care of people they comsider very poor at making good decisions I'm not sure how you think God does this?
Furthermore a good parent doesn't hold themselves up as perfect and then reject their children for not meeting perfection But God does not reject us for not meeting perfection. God loves us unconditionally.
An earthly parent would generally feel a level of responsibility (wether rightly so or not) for their offsprings behaviour I think you would have to draw a distinction there depending on whether the offspring was a child or an adult, wouldn't you?
As a parent my aim is to produce independent adults, I don't expect them to worship me, loving me would be nice but in a mutually rewarding and supportive relationship worship=love. I don't have to support God, because he's already complete in himself. But I love him because he is the source of all life, all love, all goodness.

My metaphor wasn't exact - it couldn't be because no metaphor can be. I was trying to convey something that I think you were trying not to understand.

God made us and then left us to fend for ourselves on earth with only eachother. He's not directly looking after us.

I thought we didn't go to heaven if we didn't believe in Jesus? I thought we effectively borrowed his perfection when we believed in him. So without accepting him we are not perfect and hence we are not in his gang.

Hih - is 'god made us' a statement. If so you should state which god and how you know this.

How come Christians find this logic acceptable?
Because the alternative 'logics' are worse?

Erol - what alternative logic? Why would you use Christian theory in a way that you wouldn't except in any other part of your life?

I think even parents of adult children feel varying degrees of responsibility for how their kids have turned out, I know I do.

Yougo - no idea - but if Christians don't accept the free will argument presumably they'd have to find some other excuse reason for the existence of evil.

I'm mainly working from a Christian viewpoint in that they generally believe god created us.

I think the term evil was created by religion. One easy way to get rid of it

The obvious conclusion from observing, presuming that god exists, is that God is evil. I believe this 'evil' is heightened by 'blind following' and lack of judgement. It appears to be a vicious cycle.

Don't you think it's more likely, and more hopeful really, that he doesn't exist Yougo ? - Though I do think the massive expansion of the Universe at the big bang and many other things are quite wondrous and rather inexplicable!

Jug - I don't think any god exists. I suppose it's more likely that a god doesn't exist.

Jug - what do you think?

Yeh, I guess I think that a God does not exist, only the many wonderful Gods that we have created across the world and through time.

I think story is important to us.
I think there is much to wonder at.
I think love matters most.

Jug - yes it's important to understand history, music, art, etc. so there is a place for religion and choice.
It's interesting to watch documentaries on tribes in the amazon (for example), that have had little or no contact with the outside world. They have not been exposed to any mainstream religions. They manufacture their own spirits and gods. Partly out of fear and partly out of wanting control within the tribe. It makes it clear how these stories can be made and believed.

No more takers ?
All out for 6 ?!

Or perhaps not interested in the facile turn the discussion had taken?

Didn't seem so to me niminy, but possibly it had run it's course.
Slightly surprised that's all.

Didn't mean to be dismissive -- am very weary and still working. But I don't think I have much to add when the debate gets to the level of 'all religions are made up to oppress the people'.

Good night then niminy - hope you'll be finished with the work soon and can get some rest