Feeling uneasy with my church and not sure what I believe in

[Campaspe]

Quick history: was brought up as a Methodist, but stopped attending church in late childhood. As an adult, I felt interested in the Christian message, sometimes read the Bible and prayed, but didn't attend church. When DD was born, I felt strongly that I wanted her to be brought up with Christian values, and with an understanding of Christian stories and culture. Accordingly, I had her baptised in a C of E church, and we have been regulars at Sunday School and church since her babyhood. She is now 6.

Recently, for some reason, I have begun to question if I want to continue going to church, and if I'm going for the right reasons. I often feel doubt, and I don't always feel a strong personal relationship with God (though sometimes I do). I find the Sunday School is sparsely attended, and not run in a way that appeals to young children. DD finds it boring, and does not want to go. I have begun to wonder if I continue going only so I can get her into our preferred school at a later date (and I feel uneasy at my own hypocrisy). I also feel embarrassed by some of the "overt worship" and evangelical stuff such as hands in the air during hymns. I think I prefer a high church service, with lots of "bells and smells", but also a very socially liberal ethos. Is there such a thing? I feel a little guilty at having to basically force DD to go, and find myself thinking about getting Christian books/children's Bibles to read at home instead.

However, and I can't quite explain this, it felt important to continue attending, until something happened today. The vicar pulled me to one side after the service, and asked me why I still accompany DD to the Sunday School (held in a separate building), rather than stay in church for the whole service. She told me that I am missing sermons and neglecting my own needs as a Christian. I explained that DD is a very nervous child who feels uneasy about going on her own. The vicar told me that I need to think about forcing the issue and making some tough decisions for my own spiritual benefits. I felt slightly ashamed, as if I am being a very over-protective parent. I also felt annoyed, and it's brought all the doubts I have described in the paragraph above to the fore.

How do Christian parents react with young children who do not want to go to church? I think if I am being honest, part of my reason for attending church is to get DD into a good school. Does this hypocrisy make it impossible for me to have a close relationship with God? Can you be a Christian and not go to church, or worship in some sort of community?

Feeling very thoughtful and uncertain tonight, and would be grateful if some of you could pray for me. Thank you.

Disclaimer: I'm an atheist so my post probably won't go near all of your spiritual concerns but I did want to say I find the vicar's reasoning odd. Saying she's old enough to be left and you may be exacerbating the problem by staying is one thing, but sort of vaguely threatening you with damnation is another :) (I appreciate that wasn't really what he/she was saying but you know what I mean!)

I do think if you want your DD to grow up with an appreciation for your religion you would be better off 'home educating' as she won't be getting a positive message from it now. As she's 6, though, I take it this is not a primary school you're waiting to get her into? Or are you not in the UK? If a secondary, I would knock it on the head and see what's happening nearer the time - by the age of 11 she might have a marked preference against the secondary school at this rate.

Overall I think it is usual to feel doubt sometimes, but this doesn't sound like a church that is really on your wavelength. I think you should take your vicar's concerns about your spiritual wellbeing seriously and look for a place of worship that speaks to you and your values. (Not quite the end result he or she was probably hoping for but probably the right one for you).

There are lots of different styles of church and it sounds as if the style of the one you are at isn't helping you right now. If you are thinking long term at secondary admissions then check out what the criteria are on the school website. Is it this church that is the deal breaker for admissions or can it be any C of E church? If it is any C of E church then do a bit of church shopping. Visit some, chekc out the welcome and the children's work and see what they are like.

My preference is also for the social liberal ethos you get in middle to high churches and unless you are very rural or in a very conservative area then there should be a church that is more to your taste. I hope it works out and I will of course pray.

Praying Campaspe.

You say 'I think I prefer a high church service, with lots of "bells and smells", but also a very socially liberal ethos. Is there such a thing?'. Like greenheart, my experience has been that the two go together. I worship at my local CofE cathedral and find that it has the right mix of traditional liturgy (the service I go to uses modern language, rather than the Book of Common Prayer, but if you want to go the whole hog with the thees and thous you can get that too... ) with liberal attitudes. It is also very welcoming of children, people with learning difficulties and ... well, everyone. Some churches which may define themselves as 'Anglo-Catholic' may be against the ordination of women, but many 'high to middle' churches (to borrow greenheart's definition) are not. It sounds to me as if you need to try out a few alternatives. Have you seen A Church Near You? Just put in your postcode and it'll suggest CofE places in the vicinity.

You also ask how parents react with children who don't want to go to church, and this is a difficult one for me to answer, because I didn't start going till mine were 8 and 10. With DD1 she asserted after about a year that she didn't believe in God and didn't want to come, and I respected her choice. DD2 wanted to - and continues to want to - attend church with me, and that's fine too, and my atheist DH doesn't comment on her/our choice any more than I comment on DD1's and his. However, clearly there's a difference between an 11-year-old and a 6-year-old, and I would say that, since it's important to you that your DD get some experience of Christianity, and since she is clearly not getting a good experience where you are at the moment, the time might be right to move for her too. I wonder if her desire not to be left is actually partly because she's bored or not getting a lot from the experience. If she was having a whale of a time, she would probably not be so worried about you being there...

I do think (though my experience isn't extensive) that getting Sunday School right is quite hard, and some children might actually prefer to stay in the whole service with their parents (with something quiet to do to keep them occupied during the sermon). A good church won't mind the odd bit of chatter or running around as long as it's not too disruptive, and some may have activities that your DD could do in the church (an activity corner or 'pew bag' with activities in). There will be other ways in which she can participate in the service as she gets older, which she might like better than Sunday School (acting as a server, taking the collection, singing in the choir...).

I hope this helps. Praying you find the right place for you and for your DD.

I think you just need to find another church tbh. I am Anglo-Catholic and evangelical holding up of hands does absolutely nothing for me. I much prefer smells and bells. There are some very high churches that do not agree with the ordination of women. I do actually attend one of these, even though I DO agree with the ordination of women. I don't ever find that it seeps out into general church - we have women preaching but not actually doing the mass bit. I do struggle with this a bit. If you want to avoid churches that don't get the ordination of women, check the website. If it says they sign up to Resolutions A, B and C then avoid. But I'm sure you can find something in the middle that will suit you.

Re Sunday School - I do sort of agree with your vicar. I think it's quite important to be actually in church, listen to the sermon etc. if you can. But you either need the right Sunday School where your daughter will feel safe/happy or, as another poster said, she may be old enough to sit quietly in church, perhaps with a Christian children's book or something.

Campaspe hope you find somewhere you will be happier, as others have said there will be places that better suit you... but of course there is never a perfect church.

Personally, I would give your vicar the benefit of the doubt that she is thinking of you and wanting you to get the most out of church. If you have concerns about what she said I would talk to her and tell her it made you feel uncomfortable. She may not have kids of her kids might be totally different to yours. Our daughter found Sunday School in a large church hard and is not much better in a smaller church.

As a Christian I would say that it is worth perservering with the bits of church you find hard (although maybe not in that one, go to one you feel better in) and also spend some time exploring God and what knowing him means, maybe an evening group without kids if you have a partner or reliable safe babysitter.

I'll be praying for you OP. it sounds like you need to move churches and find somewhere more in line with your preferred style of worship - and there's no harm in making a little tour and visiting a few different churches over the next few weeks.
For you as a Christian it's important to be really engaging during services, and to have fellowship with others in your church so I would caution against 'going it alone' and just doing Bible studies at home with your DD. the Bible is quite clear on the need for community.
hopefully a new church might have a better kids program so you leave her on her own in the kids ministry without worrying.
Do you have any Christian friends that you meet with, or are you part of a prayer group etc?

I admire your honesty about the school situation - I'm not sure what my thoughts about this are just yet.

we go to church. DH has always done so, I only started 15 years ago when I became a Christian.

for us it's natural that our children attend Sunday Services with us, from birth.
they never went to Sunday school because that would have meant missing most part of the service.

some days they are not happy to go to church, but it is the having to go to anywhere early on a Sunday morning that they protest about. (and sometimes I'm the same...)

if your DD is unhappy about Sunday School stop taking her.
if I were you I would attend a few srvices with her.
if you don't feel comfortable with happy-clappy style "shop around".

I don't like the vicar's pushy attitude. it's not up to him to tell you what you should do - as you did not ask for his advice!

my sister is the same as you - she loves God, but hates churches.
God understands that I'm sure!
you can certainly "home educate" your DD.
you might benefit from joining a prayer group for guidance, but I truly believe that to be close to God the firsts step are reading the Bible and praying.

do you know what an Almanac is?
it is a sort of timetable which gives you different portions of the Bible to read every day.

if you PM your address I'm happy to send you one (C of E)

I have more thoughts on this but I have to do the school run. I hope you find some of what I said helpful.

Thank you for your prayers and comments. There is much food for thought here. I have decided that I don't wish to go back to my church, and maybe trying some other churches is a good idea. But first I am going to spend a bit of time thinking, praying and assessing my faith. For whatever reason, I don't feel I want to worship in a group defying right now, but will see how things go.

I'm an atheist and I'm of the opinion that no-one needs to listen to a sermon to be a good Christian - they need to listen to their God. It's as if your vicar has made herself the arbiter of your spiritual destiny - that's actually pretty arrogant, since if you believe in God, you surely believe that it's God's decision? I'd have nothing to do with a church led like that.

I have attended quite a few C of E services though - the DDs went to a C of E primary and I felt that having decided to send them there, we had to support the ethos. I also feel that it's up to them to choose their spiritual path, so I haven't raised them to be atheist any more than DH has raised them to be Christian. Our local Church has been very variable. One of the worst sermons I've heard was from a lay person - all 'pity the poor atheists, their lives are so hollow and empty without God blah blah blah'. One of the best was from the then Bishop of the local Diocese - warm, inclusive, witty and accepting. You'll find a church that suits you and isn't mired in power games.

Campaspe I am a Catholic so have no experience of the CofE and vicars but if you stick with your decision to leave your current church community I would talk to your vicar before you go. I think it's important that he/she hear your opinion and that you explain your experience. He/she is also only human and although the conversation you had was uncomfortable for you I imagine the vicar only meant well. I think as Christians it's important that we give people the benefit of the doubt and appreciate our own part in any misunderstanding. Any church community is made up of regular, imperfect people who are going to make mistakes. A huge part of our faith is forgiveness and allowing ourselves to be vulnerable with each other. I think in any relationship just walking away with no explanation is one of the worst ways of dealing with an uncomfortable situation. You obviously feel angry and that's understandable but I think that in the long run you will feel better if you are honest and get your thoughts and feelings out on the table. Being part of any kind of community or human relationship is going to have times of difficulty but we can only learn from those times if we engage with them. If you just disappear into the night both you and your vicar will have unresolved thoughts and emotions due to your encounter, as I'm sure your vicar will notice your absence and will wonder if he/she did something wrong.

Let's not pre-judge someone who is giving their life to serving their local community. If you meet your vicar privately and honestly tell him/her what you are thinking and feeling, at the very least you can have closure and peace if you stick with your decision to leave.

It's these kind of one-off experiences where people can feel misunderstood by another person, whether a family member or a member of a faith community where people can stop seeing their family or stop coming to church and no one knows why.

When you related your story you talked about how you were already feeling doubts and confusion about where you are with your walk with God and this conversation became the Tipping Point where you now have decided to leave. I would just encourage you to take a bit of time to think and reflect on this experience. Why are you so willing to place all the blame outside yourself for the communication breakdown? You were already struggling internally with finding a home at your church and you also admit that you weren't present for most of the service so maybe this was an effort by the community to show that they would like to get to know you better and include you. People will make mistakes and annoy us and offend us - but are we willing to also accept our part and move forward to meet them? For example your vicar may have no idea how the conversation was a very negative experience for you. Take the bull by the horns and go and talk to her/him. Christianity is about love, healing, forgiveness and unity - but we can't receive those if we won't engage and be honest with those around us.

Forming meaningful relationships is never easy and we all screw up. It's important for us as Christians to look at the intentions of the other person and what we have in common as children of God before we succumb to misunderstandings and build barriers between each other. I'll keep you in my prayers, please pray for me and I hope you find the Christian home you are looking for, the love, acceptance and meaning.