Should Christians be hated?

[plaingirly]

Random question! I opened my Bible on Matthew 10 and verse 22 says :

And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.

I think there is another verse similar but can't remember it.

So if someone is really a follower of Jesus will people hate them and if people don't hate them are they not strong enough in their faith?

I don't really want to be hated! Also at work we have to get along with people so having them hate us wouldn't be ideal. Unless the verses are more specific or maybe aimed at the disciples.

Every time I see this thread title I have to fight the urge to simply post YES :)

But I don't think that really. Religion yes and religious hierarchies perhaps - especially at the higher levels, but ordinary Christians will be a mix of good and bad. Misguided of course, but that's not a crime.

I must read more of the thread as it seems to have moved on. On the bits I just skimmed I'd say if you accept the stories about Jesus (a big IF) then he wasn't doing it for the power and wealth.

Can't agree Christianity is special/unique though. Regardless of the intentions and/or existence of Jesus the church is a sequel/spin off to the old testament religion. Jump starting the new church in a way that wouldn't be possible if you just invented one from scratch. The Mormons cleverly did the same thing to Christianity. By making theirs a sequel they can immediately claim to go back 1000s of years.

The first thing you do is say that you're here to introduce new rules and sweep away the old.

Agree that the stories don't seem to describe someone on a power / wealth trip. But that doesn't rule out mentally unbalanced. And since it's all second / third hand info, it's anyone's guess what the reality of it was of course.

But the dying-gods-reappearing trope (and you all forgot Osiris by the way) is your basic agricultural metaphor turned into a good story. That's why it shows up in a variety of cultures, it's simply the life cycle of plants: born, grow, appreciated, dead, reborn...

I always liked what C. S. Lewis said about Jesus being "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord" where he explains that if Jesus wasn't god then he was a lunatic or a liar. He was right as far as that goes, but he left out a few choices. One is that the stories about him are completely fictional and another is that they have been changed to suit the times and the teller. So maybe he never said he was god. Maybe he just said "hey, let's lighten up a bit and be excellent to each other".

While I'm not convinced that he even existed Christians can take some comfort from the lack of self serving statements. If inventing a religion from scratch there are things most people would put at the top of their list of rules.

#All your money comes from god so you should give most of it to the priests along with the best food - and later on first class hotels, air travel and expensive clothes.

#Priests should be able to have lots of wives/temple maidens/choir boys and should never have to do any actual work.

Of course some churches did add those things later when they realised they could.

backonbriefly says 'Every time I see this thread title I have to fight the urge to simply post YES'

That is incredibly sad. And actually it is true. I am a member of the clergy and I am very visible as a woman in clerical wear. The looks of hatred and disgust I can get when walking around the town I live in are hard to live with but are a reality in my life.

On occassions when I'm feeling a bit fragile, maybe after the funeral of a baby or toddler, or listening to people that no one else wants to listen to (mostly the homeless on my patch) then I take the clerical collar off to run to the shops because being hated is hard work emotionally.

So next time you see a woman in clericals in the queue at the supermarket please smile, say hello, laugh maybe because we function in the marginal places that most people don't want to go (had to wash my hair midweek to get the smell of death out of it) and we do it becuase we have faith and trust in the triune God.

OK vent over, been a tough week, back to the debate about the reasons why you hate me and my kind.

The looks of hatred and disgust I can get when walking around the town I live in are hard to live with but are a reality in my life

I don't believe that. We don't live in a society where people are generally hated for wearing a dog collar. If anything, they get more respect (for no particular reason) than the average person.

And this "I'm a Christian doing nice things that no one else wants to do" doesn't wash. Guess what - plenty of atheists do that too. It's just that when we do, we're not responding to commandments from on high, we're doing it because it's the right thing to do.

Christians shouldn't be hated just because they're Christians. Christianity, on the other hand, hasn't justified the respect that it seems to think it deserves, so I am quite entitled to hate it if I like. I don't find anything remotely respectable, or even moral, about the disgusting concept that my child was born a sinner and needed the blood sacrifice of a Palestinian man 2000 years ago to save him from "sins" he hasn't actually committed.

Don't behave like a martyr. That's disrespectful to the people in the world who actually ARE being persecuted and hated because of their religion.

Just popping in, to say:

I think if Greenheart says that she is hated for wearing a clerical collar we should regardless of our whether we are atheists or Christians believe her. We are not in her shoes, and we have not walked her walk.

As it happens, I find it all too easy to believe that someone in a clerical collar is hated, and the idea that a clerical collar earns you general automatic respect seems far-fetched. Perhaps that's because of the clergy I know.

As for 'Christians doing nice things that no-one else will do won't wash'. I hope it is true that there are lots of atheists doing good things. That would be a wonderful thing. But in my neck of the woods it's Christians who are looking out for the marginal, the unloved and unlovely, the lonely and poor and isolated -- most of all it's Christians who are prepared to give of themselves when there is nothing to get back, no feelgood factor, no praising articles in the local papers.

This is not to say that the position of Christians in this country is like that of Christians in the middle east, who are being viciously persecuted. It's just to say that it isn't always easy, either, and that the idea that the clergy have the general respect and approval of the population is simply not true.

"hey, let's lighten up a bit and be excellent to each other".

That's it! Jesus was actually Bill and Ted!

As it happens, I find it all too easy to believe that someone in a clerical collar is hated, and the idea that a clerical collar earns you general automatic respect seems far-fetched. Perhaps that's because of the clergy I know.

As it happens, I find it very difficult to believe that someone in a clerical collar is hated any more than any other demographic. Some people will give looks to people with different skin colour, language, gender, sexual orientation, disability. All of which are a bigger problem than that of the ordained.

The general, neutral public do afford undue respect to the clergy because society has dictated that they should (at least in this country) and despite how it seems, the vast majority of the population are actually quite average.

But in my neck of the woods it's Christians who are looking out for the marginal, the unloved and unlovely, the lonely and poor and isolated -- most of all it's Christians who are prepared to give of themselves when there is nothing to get back, no feelgood factor, no praising articles in the local papers.

Quite the opposite where I am actually. I rarely seen religious groups involved in local charitable events. In fact, mostly all they do is turn up on a Sunday morning and park on the double yellow lines outside my local church for two hours (inhibiting my view turning out of my road) and then bugger off again. Not very helpful at all.

Green do you think it may be because you are a women in a dog collar and people are not comfortable with that?

Niminy you make some valid points.

Pedro I agree that parking on double yellow lines is selfish and inconsiderate. Perhaps you should speak to the minister of the church and see if he could ask his congregation not to park there.

I've actually recently spoken to my local councillor because there are a number of issues I have with poor parking as I also live next door to a school (for my sins!).

Please don't try and deny the reality of my experience as you have not walked in my shoes. It was a shock when I first got the look of disgust from a member of the public. At theological college you are warned about projection and transference (to give it the technical terms) and all members of the clergy will have experienced it at some level. It comes with the territory of being a professional religious person. I'm sure some it is is because I am very obviously a woman with long hair and dressing as fashionably as I can in clerical gear, but I am human and it is distressing. Mostly I can cope but there are times when I can't and I leave the gear at home.

I haven't yet been hit by a member of the public or spat at, but it is an occupational hazzard and I am as careful as I can be, but the nature of my work is that I'm often alone with people who are very stressed and I know to keep a clear line of sight between myself and the door.

I cannot compare my situation to that of Chrisitans around the world who are persecuted for their beliefs. I am no where near as brave as that.

It is easy to hate institutions but the institution is made up of lots and lots of people who are flawed, as we all are, but they give up their time to volunteer for all sorts of projects which in my town include foodbank, street pastors, learning disability cafe and homeless projects. You wouldn't know that these projects are run by churches because it isn't advertised but look at the governance and it becomes clear. Caring for the vulnerable is part of the outworking of faith for Christians.

What facinates me is that my experience is denied. Maybe it is just too uncomfortable. Who knows.

I'm backing out of the thread as I really do have a job to do and if I am to be of any use to the bereaved, vulnerable, searching and angry who are part of my day to day life I need to be strong and I probably shouldn't have posted here. Bad week, poor judgement on my part - it is easier to hate the sterotype than a real person and my bad for being real.

RevGreenHeart

I don't believe that. We don't live in a society where people are generally hated for wearing a dog collar.

I do believe it. There's a lot of resentment and sneering towards Christianity from a lot of people these days. I really hesitate in mentioning anything to do with my faith in RL, because I know what people's reactions can be like. They'll automatically assume I'm thick, or take the entire Bible literally, hate gay people, am responsible for the actions of "the church" etc. when none of these things are true. There's also an immediate judgement from some people about Christians being "square" and boring. Or as soon as you mention in passing that you went to a church-related event, people go off on a long rant about why they hate religion. So if someone says "what did you do at the weekend" I think very carefully before including "I went to church"!

RevGreenHeart please do keep up the good work and don't let the so-and-sos get you down!

Well, committing a sin doesn't make you suffer (it's usually the opposite, which is why we commit them), it's the consequences that do. Jesus managed to bypass this bit. Nifty.

What about his death on the cross, carrying the spiritual and physical consequences of the world's sin? How is that "bypassing" anything?

Greenheart, sorry to hear you've had such a tough week. Pour yourself a glass of something enjoyable this evening and relax for a while. It sounds like you're a very strong person doing some amazing work.

Attacks on clergy do happen, sadly - I can't link from my phone but a report published in 2008 said that between 1997-1999, 12% of C of E clergy had been assaulted, and 70% 'abused or threatened.' It's true that in many areas, clergy are well regarded generally, but I can see how Greenheart's experience is actually quite typical in many parts of the UK. Hatred directed towards individual members of any faith community, whether leaders or not, is totally abhorrent IMO, and IME most moderate religious people of most religious traditions agree. The only religious people who think it's okay to hate others are fanatics and bigots.

I think you really have to look at who is doing the abusing and threatening rather than who is receiving it. Chances are there's a common link between most abused groups in terms of who abuses them.

I'm a 30 year old, white, British, atheist male and I suffer at the hands of the unruly public from time to time. It's hardly isolated to Christians.

I could easily say it's because I show no sign of being a good religionist that these things happen, and point out that the top 9 charities and most of the top charitable donating individuals in the world are secular/atheist, but I don't, because I accept that some people are just arseholes and I get on with my life.

There's a difference between the frictions that might afflict anyone even a white, male, heterosexual atheist and the hatred and abuse, and threats to one's personal safety that you incur because you are doing your job. We have seen on these threads many times that people think it is ok to be rude to Christians. Sadly, that rudeness does not just happen in the safe anonymity of the online world. And because clergy are often the only visible Christian in a locality, they attract people's aggression. That's the fact of the matter -- and it is different from having someone yell at you because you've reminded them they're parking inconsiderately.

I've seen that thing about the top charities and charitable donors many times. But it's the stuff that doesn't happen in the headlines that I was meaning. In my area Christians are involved in: street Pastoring (that is, helping drunk, distressed people in the middle of the night, giving them shoes and hot drinks, and helping to sort out trouble, no conversations about Christianity are involved), running community lunches for people who are isolated and lonely, long term support of families with disabled children, visiting a hospice, shifting rubbish from people's gardens, doing DIY for people not physically able to do it themselves, running a homeless night shelter ... Clearly atheists could be doing all those things, and maybe some are. But it is Christians who are committed to keeping all these things (and more) going, and doing them not for reward, and not for money, and not to look good, but because that is where the need is.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts do you live outside the UK or if you do live in the UK is it possible that you live in a predominantly Muslim area?

Otherwise I can't see this disgust for the clergy either and I'm thinking it is because you are a woman. That might earn some disgust from Christians. We've seen recently the opposition from the church to equality. To an atheist like myself the gender of the priest makes no difference, but some devout Christians will see your collar as an insult to Jesus.

I don't see the average person caring enough about your dog collar to stare at you.

We have seen on these threads many times that people think it is ok to be rude to Christians.

I've never suggested that abuse of Christians is acceptable. Abuse of anyone is unacceptable, but you can attract that same abuse just by wearing a football shirt.

Clearly atheists could be doing all those things, and maybe some are. But it is Christians who are committed to keeping all these things (and more) going, and doing them not for reward, and not for money, and not to look good, but because that is where the need is.

Are you seriously suggesting that it's only Christians who are committed to charity? If you are then you really need to look around a bit.

You also seem to be suggesting that atheists don't do charitable things without looking for any recognition.

In case you need some evidence, I'm organising and taking part in a 24 hour cycle relay next weekend in support of my local hospital's cancer ward and in memory of a good friend and colleague who recently passed away. It's been a huge amount of effort to organise on my own but I don't expect recognition for it, I simply want to raise money for a good cause.

Backonlybriefly, that is nonsense on so many levels.

I wonder why you atheists find it so hard to accept the truth of what Greenheart says? Is it because you can't bear to accept that a Christian might be right about something -- even if it is their own everyday experience?

I'm just wondering why Christians seem to think they should get special treatment. I don't believe that Christians suffer any more abuse than any other demographic but because the religion is so sacred, it must surely be worse to abuse a christian than to abuse someone else? No, it's all wrong. But people end up on the receiving end of abuse every day for doing their job, not just the religious.

niminypiminy, Matthew 7:4-5

Personally I've never been rude to someone about their religion outside of a thread about it. Even then it's the religion I'm insulting by the mere fact of not believing it which upsets people. In a thread discussing religion people must expect to see people disagree.