Should Christians be hated?

[plaingirly]

Random question! I opened my Bible on Matthew 10 and verse 22 says :

And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.

I think there is another verse similar but can't remember it.

So if someone is really a follower of Jesus will people hate them and if people don't hate them are they not strong enough in their faith?

I don't really want to be hated! Also at work we have to get along with people so having them hate us wouldn't be ideal. Unless the verses are more specific or maybe aimed at the disciples.

Sorry... typos.... might claim he merely ?swooned?

he was resurrected...... so it wasn't even really much of a sacrifice if you ask me

yes, I've thought this. If you've lost someone then to get them back after 3 days would be unimaginably joyous. It's the finality of losing someone that is so difficult - you'd give anything to have them back, even for a minute. Sorry, going on a bit there.

Even if the 3 days thing sounds a bit peasy, I don't think being nailed by your hands and feet and left there until you die is particularly peasy. Especially if you were entirely innocent. I also wonder what happened when he went to 'hell'; and I can't help thinking that whatever happened there made the cross business look like a walk in the park.....

but of course we can't know any of that, anything about what really happened in those three days.

italian I did wonder why you said resuscitated.... I assumed it was a typo!

I don't believe in Jesus as the sun of god. My point was that Christians assert a great deal of the basis of their faith to the fact that Jesus made this massive sacrifice and died for our sins. But then he came back to life.... So it wasn't really a sacrifice at all. Which makes the whole religion a little farcical. I just can't get my head around that.

Or if you/we/one looked at it another way, God 'lost' him for 33 years, not knowing if he'd be back?

if/when!

"So it wasn't really a sacrifice at all"

Being falsely accused, tortured, mocked, whipped, and killed, and - most importantly - taking all the sins of the world on your shoulders? Sounds like a sacrifice to me.

Being falsely accused, tortured, mocked, whipped, and killed, and - most importantly - taking all the sins of the world on your shoulders? Sounds like a sacrifice to me

Well, given that

a) He'd planned in advance that all of these things would happen
b) Had set things up in such a way that they would
c) Had decided all by himself that he required a blood sacrifice of himself to himself to save us from himself
d) That instead of "taking the world's sins on his shoulders" (whatever that actually means) he could simply have said "I forgive you all" and had the same result with none of the stress
e) Managed to be up and walking within three days of his "death"
f) Is, as we speak, the "living Lord" up in Heaven

.....I fail to see not only what the sacrifice was supposed to be, but who exactly he was hoping to impress with this showboating nonsense.

Or if you/we/one looked at it another way, God 'lost' him for 33 years, not knowing if he'd be back?

Are we taking about Jesus here? God lost himself? How careless.

Pedro I apologise I thought you said resuscitated but I misread it. I know on another thread someone asked if English was not my first language! It is but I think I might be a bit dyslexic (genuinely) so I do get mixed up. My apologies.

Ellie .....I fail to see not only what the sacrifice was supposed to be, but who exactly he was hoping to impress with this showboating nonsense.

Me, Jesus impressed me with what he did.

Pedro I had to smile at your God losing himself joke. Jesus is part of the trinity, God in three persons, so one part can be away from another part. But before you ask me to prove it, I can't! The usual imagery is water/ice/steam or an orange with skin/flesh and juice.

Or the colours, take a look at this picture to show what I mean (I have not read all the web page just the first illustration).

blog.adw.org/2010/05/in-search-of-the-trinity/

I don't know if he saw it as 'showboating' (whatever that means?). He was very distressed the night before [his illegal 'trial' and sharpish crucifixion before it was even morning and before anyone had chance to protest] at the realisation of what probably lay ahead.

So is Jesus the son of god or god himself? Never really got the whole trinity thing, doesn't make any sense...... And how is water/ice/steam relevant?

Well, water/ice/steam is just an illustration, it is three things but also one thing. It doesn't explain it, neither does the coloured light think I just linked to, it's just an attempt to explain it. God is three in one, three persons in one Godhead. I know it's hard to understand but that's what pretty much defines the Christian faith, belief in the trinity.

Showboating means showing off.

An analogy: Let's say my son is very ill with a kidney infection. The doctors tell me he can be cured with antibiotics. I say, "What if I gave him one of my infection free kidneys, would that cure him too?" "Well, yes, says the doctor, "but it's not necessary, antibiotics will work so there's no need to put yourself, or him, through that". "NO!" I say. "I want to give my kidney, thanks - in spite of the risk of death to myself. I see it as an opportunity to prove to my son that I truly love him".

I'd be a nutter, right? - but that's what God apparently did. This omnipotent being CHOSE to have himself murdered in the most horrible way (ignoring the fact that he'd already proclaimed murder as a sin, so we had to sin in order to be saved from our sins ) when all he actually had to do was say, "Right - I forgive you. Behave yourselves from now on, or you don't get to come into Heaven".

And the trial wasn't just illegal - it was impossible. No trials were held like that over Passover.....EVER. It didn't happen.

And what did he sacrifice again? His life? Er...hardly. He's eternal & immortal. It's impossible to sacrifice your life if you're immortal since you cannot die. That's what it means.

Makes no sense whatsoever.

Ellie hi.

Christians believe he became mortal and shared our humanity.

How do you know that when all he actually had to do was say... you don't believe in him so how can you possibly know what he needed to do to forgive sin?

Hi Italian :)

Do you think just because you believe in God this gives you some special insight into what he thinks or does that's not available to me then? That I don't believe is not relevant. I'm just using logic.

An omnipotent being is not constrained by "needs" - he can do whatever he likes. If he "needed" to go about things in a certain way, who or what is requiring that? If anything is, then he is not omnipotent.

And if he became mortal, it was only temporary since he can hardly be described as mortal now. There's no such thing as being temporarily mortal - you either are or you are not.

If you sacrifice something, you give it up either forever, or in the expectation of forever. You cannot sacrifice your life and then get up and walk around again three days later and still claim you've sacrificed it.

And you can't claim it came as any surprise to him because his omniscience means nothing ever does - he knows absolutely everything in advance.

This thread is a really interesting read.

It seems that when trying to understand what it means for the Church to love everyone, the definition that keeps coming up is not the presence of a positive love, but the absence of hate.

Which sort of brings the discussion back to the OP, in which the Christian identity was being established in relation to how Christians are/were hated.

This thread is leading me to think that love isn't the emotion at the centre of Christian belief, but about tolerating (even welcoming) other people's hatred of yourself while forbearing to hate them in return.

It feel a bit like looking at the negative image of a photograph.

Ellie you are,of course, welcome to have any views or thoughts of God.

I do personally believe I have some insight into God since I believe I have a relationship with him. I talk to him and I think he talks to me, although I don't hear voices.

I do totally understand your logic. I also feel life is not always completely logical, as we humans would understand. Many things are true that are not strictly logical. Love is one of those things (for me).

You are correct that Jesus is no longer mortal, but he was (I believe) fully mortal when on earth and that did mean, I believe, that he did not know what exactly would happen. He did not know everything. So when he made that sacrifice I believe maybe he did not know exactly how it would all go. These are just my thoughts. He knew that he would be raised but I still think it was a sacrifice.

Why exactly did God need to allow Jesus to die, it is tough and I maybe will never fully understand it. God said that sin needed to be punished and I think we all make mistakes, so none of us are perfect, but the Christian teaching is that Christ himself paid that price (he was perfect and so he could pay that price). The old illustration is of a judge who must impose a fine and yet knowing the person in the dock cannot pay, pays the fine himself.

For most religions in the world it seems to be about working your way into a relationship with God on earth and in heaven by good deeds. Christianity is the one that says, God has done it all. I do sometimes wonder with regard to forgiveness if people needed it to be that clear. As clear as a death, a sacrifice, and that a simple 'I forgive you' would not have been enough to convince humankind that they were acceptable to God. But that is just my late night museings, not theology. Certainly, I have just heard that it had to be that way.

At times it seems very hard to understand. I guess I like to think of it as Jesus running into a burning building to save a person, he is doing it out of love. When I pray now I tend to pray to Jesus, because I think he did that for me.

piprabbit what an interesting thought about the negative of the photo. I feel very sad when I see how badly the church has behaved and still does behave. I also feel very sad when I hear of persecution of Christians, and of those of any faith. There are lots of bad things in the world. But I believe love really is at the centre of the Christian faith.

I do not think for many Christian faith is about fear or anything negative. I guess I can't speak for many, so I will just say for me, for me it is love.

It is the fact that in all this world, in all the fun and joy and in all the sorrow, absolutely nothing makes me feel like God does. It is not even that often mentioned 'peace', because I am sometimes so troubled by the troubles of the world. I think it is that I am not alone.

In proverbs it says there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother. I think that is what that means to me, Jesus sticks close to me.

I must go to bed now, the ironing is all done and I have finished watching Obsessive Compulsive Hoarders! Good night

How was the retreat, Italian? Nice and restful?

Yes, I know our conclusions are very different but I do like that you're so willing to listen (read!) and consider. That's the most any of us can ask of each other, right?

He knew that he would be raised but I still think it was a sacrifice.

It's just not a sacrifice if he came alive again. It's nothing to do with being hard to understand, it's just wrong. Christians always say "oh it's difficult to understand, but you just have to have faith and remember the love", well sorry, it's just stupid and illogical. And by illogical I don't mean hard to understand.

If he had run into a burning building to save a child, that would be commendable (although less impressive if he knew death was just a minor obstacle). But the whole sacrifice thing is farcical.

And the trinity is even more stupid. It allows the three gods to be separate when it suits or all the same when it suits. But of course we are supposed to just accept how this is so that the church can use it to explain as wide a range of issues as possible without deviating from the metaphorical messages in the bible.

Ellie thank you. The 6 days at Spring Harvest were lovely. Very moving and also very good fun. Too much food though! But that is Butlins for you, all you can eat!

Yes, listening to each other is important, I would probably say that is the least we can do for each other!

Pedro of course the Trinity is useful! The Trinity is God! Of course we will disagree, that is fine.

Pedro just asking do you think what Jesus did is nothing of importance, or do you think it just did not happen. People might say it nothing significant. But I don't think going through death is nothing, or that being separated from God is nothing? I don't think it is nothing. I think it is something. I would call that something 'sacrifice'. Personally, I would say it is hard to understand and maybe to some it seems illogical. Sacrifice is giving up.

say it is.... sorry, early!

Yes, listening to each other is important, I would probably say that is the least we can do for each other!

Ha - I think that's what I meant. Sorry, need more coffee!

It's just not a sacrifice if he came alive again.

It wasn't an ordinary death though. He took all of the world's sins upon himself.

Pedro just asking do you think what Jesus did is nothing of importance, or do you think it just did not happen. People might say it nothing significant.

Both actually. I don't believe in God, so by extension I don't believe in the supernatural occurrences surrounding the resurrection stories. However, even if every word were true, I wouldn't consider it significant for the reasons Ellie has quoted above.

If Jesus was god in human form (which is contradictory to the 'son of god' label anyway), then firstly, what was the point of the whole display of setting up a crucifixion when all he had to do was forgive man (and he supposedly has the capacity to forgive everyone). Secondly, how are we supposed to know that he actually felt anything when he is supposedly capable of performing miracles at flick of the wrist. Finally, He took all of the world's sins upon himself .....what does that even mean? And what would it mean to an all powerful god? Not much really, since he created the darn world in the first place.

What I do agree with is that it wasn't an ordinary death because he didn't stay dead for long. This alone makes it a non sacrifice. If I wanted to be immortalised as a hero for the rest of eternity and I had the opportunity to make it look like I died for a massive cause, but could do that and then come back to life three days later and claim all the glory, I think I would probably take that.