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Young Earth Creationists

1001 replies

PedroPonyLikesCrisps · 28/03/2013 18:57

I know Young Earth Creationists exist, I've seen them on telly, but never met one in real life, so I'm just wondering if anyone here is one or knows one or whether they are actually just incredibly rare and reserved for extreme tv debating!

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 19/04/2013 11:29

Easy. With places like Madagascar and Australia the animals had several generations and hundreds of years after the flood to get there using land bridges during the ice age

Where's the ice age in the Bible?

BestValue · 19/04/2013 11:35

"Please explain a situation where we living beings could sit here and discuss the universe in a universe whose laws of physics don't allow the support of living beings."

We couldn't. Now, please explain to me a situation where we living beings could sit here and discuss the universe in a universe that did not exist because it had not yet been created by God. See? Poor logic. It doesn't work for me and it doesn't work for you either.

"But regardless of how unlikely things might be, they happened. Otherwise we wouldn't be here."

Yes, and it is more reasonable to believe we are here by design.

"And who's to say there aren't or haven't been 10^40,000 universes anyway?"

There is no evidence for them so why believe something for which there is no evidenced? That is irrational. And just to put that number into perspective, the number of subatomic particles in the entire known universe is 1 x 10^80. I don't have that much faith to believe that nonsense.

BestValue · 19/04/2013 11:41

"Hope that's clearer."

No, sorry but it's not clearer. What we see in nature is exactly what the Bible describes. Animals reproduce after their own kind. We have never seen the "kind" barrier be crossed. The "species" classification has problems because it is an imperfect, man-made system whereas God's classification system has no known failures.

EllieArroway · 19/04/2013 11:44

I'll let Icbineg deal with the infinity stuff - because your last paragraph is more up my street.

Thus time, space and matter had a beginning and must have had a cause. That cause must be, by definition, immaterial, non-spatial and timeless. (Sounds a lot like God)

That sounds suspiciously like the Cosmological argument....but you've done something quite clever and I take my hat off to you. You've included in your definition the answers to the objections you know I'm going to make. Ho hum :) But no cigar, I'm afraid. I'm too old a hat (not literally!) to be taken in that easily.

(Sounds a lot like the Flying Spaghetti Monster too, btw).

The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the existence of God:

Everything that begins to exist has a cause
The Universe began to exist
The Universe therefore had a cause
We call this cause "God"
Therefore God exists

Even taking into account your sly manoeuvring, I do not accept your premises that

  1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause (in this case time, space and matter). Who says? When we get down to the quantum level, this cause & effect business seems to cease to have the same meaning and predictability that it does above it. So, it may well not be true in physics that everything that begins to exist must have a cause. And if not everything has to, why does the universe?

  2. The whole argument is a bit of an equivocation anyway. When do we decide when something "began to exist" since absolutely everything we see around us is merely a reconfiguration of existing matter? Nothing at all "began to exist" out of nothing (ex nihilo) so why assume that the universe must have done? On this basis, the beginning of the universe (which came literally out of nothing, according to you) cannot be compared with the beginning of any material thing that we see (a star, planet, cat or table) since they were not born out of nothing. You are not comparing like with like.

  3. Why must the cause be immaterial, non-spatial and timeless? What can you possibly know about any event or thing that happened before the universe even existed that could lead you to state it "must" be anything?

  4. How do you know that any "cause" must be a sentient intelligence?

  5. What would lead you to conclude (if the above turned out to be true) that the sentient intelligence chose to incarnate himself as a mortal on our planet in order to have him sacrificed to himself?

Doesn't really stack up, does it?

BestValue · 19/04/2013 11:51

"Actually they were. The whales' ancestors came to the land and went back to the sea. On land, they had legs, back in the sea, they didn't need the legs, so they were repurposed."

Pedro, please stop the silliness. You don't understand how to separate fact from fiction. It is a fact that whales have small bones. We can observe them in the present. We can also observe that they currently use those bones as anchor points for muscles used in reproduction. That is a fact as well. That's all we can say for sure. Everything else is speculation and the only reason to claim they are vestigial hind limb bones is if one already believes in evolution. I don't so that is why I can look at the evidence objectively. Try to separate the facts we can actually observe from the grand claims that are made about those facts. Some serious critical thinking is called for.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 11:54

best what you are saying about infinity is not correct.

It is perfectly possible for the universe to be infinite in size and have been generated by a big bang. There is no incompatibility between these two ideas.

When I say there is debate, I mean that physicist are constantly reassessing the data for and against the universe having always been infinite in size. They do this having accepted the big bang as an axiom. So clearly there is no mutual incompatibility.

I don't really know how to push this area of the discussion forward. If you are certain that it is impossible for the infinite to exist given a start point (in time - not space) for the universe then I don't know how to convince you that the maths/theoretical physics does not at all agree with you.

The universe may exist for an infinite amount of time also, it just hasn't yet.

BestValue · 19/04/2013 12:03

"Mine is that it wasn't aimed at all - there was no desire to get a particular result. Now I know you won't agree with me because you are sure god wanted a particular result, but you should be able to understand what I'm saying and THEN disagree with it."

I think I always understood your point. It's not that I'm sure God wanted a particular result. It's just more reasonable to postulate God.

"You have decided after the wheel was spun that the number that came up is the number that you want and you say that is impressive, but it isn't impressive at all."

I guess you'll have to take this up with cosmologists and physicists who would disagree with you. They say if there is only one universe and no God, we should not be here. In my opinion, God is the most reasonable explanation. The multi-verse is next - but a very distant second. The chance hypothesis is so highly unlikely that doesn't even deserve consideration for third position.

BestValue · 19/04/2013 12:11

"Where's the ice age in the Bible?"

While is it not mentioned in detail, the first mention of snow is in Job who lived a few generations after the flood. Creation scientists have put together a model of earth's history which includes one ice age beginning shortly after the flood. The model explains virtually all the known data and, I would say, explains it better. I describe the model in some detail on national TV at a link that is now on YouTube and was previously posted.

infamouspoo · 19/04/2013 12:16

you say God made the best universe for people. Really? So why do we get cancer?

BestValue · 19/04/2013 12:18

"The universe may exist for an infinite amount of time also, it just hasn't yet."

You're saying it might not have an end. (Which I think is wrong.) But you still admit it had a beginning, right? If it had a beginning (and it did) it could not be infinite in time as infinite means eternal in the past and the future. If it were infinite in the past, today could have never arrived. But here we are. And if it were not infinite in time it could not be infinite in size. And all this is moot because an actual infinite anything cannot exist.

BearsInMotion · 19/04/2013 12:26

Have we covered the anthropic principle yet?

BearsInMotion · 19/04/2013 12:29

I am also not clear on why the infinite (in space or time) categorically cannot exist. Presumably this includes God?

backonlybriefly · 19/04/2013 12:32

guess you'll have to take this up with cosmologists and physicists who would disagree with you. They say if there is only one universe and no God, we should not be here.

And AGAIN!

Read the actual words, Best. I'm not saying that we'd be here if the universe were different.

If you can't even follow simple sentences that we should just ignore you and discuss this directly with the people elsewhere whose words you are cutting and pasting.

backonlybriefly · 19/04/2013 12:34

On the plus side you have done a good job of destroying the credibility of Young Earth Creationism so I guess we should have a whip round for a reward.

30 pieces of silver is traditional isn't it.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 19/04/2013 12:45

We couldn't. Now, please explain to me a situation where we living beings could sit here and discuss the universe in a universe that did not exist because it had not yet been created by God. See? Poor logic.

Nope, your logic is poor. See we simply could not live in a universe where the laws of physics don't allow life. Period. But we could live in a universe which was not created by god. You make it sound convincing because your argument assumes that only God can create universes, but that is logical fallacy because you can't know that.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 19/04/2013 12:48

If it had a beginning (and it did) it could not be infinite in time as infinite means eternal in the past and the future.

Time only exists as a dimension of space time. Any talk of eternal time is flawed thinking.

noblegiraffe · 19/04/2013 12:48

A bit of snow = an ice age? How can your model explain the complete lack of evidence for an ice age in the last 6000 years in the written record? A bridge to Madagascar and Australia should have been worthy of mention too?

Also things can be infinite and have a clearly defined beginning. The natural numbers are infinite, but start at 1.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 12:54

best you are simply incorrect that the universe cannot be infinite in size if it is finite in time.

This is just not a requirement in the maths.

Many different models currently under discussion in my current building have the universe as finite in time but not space.

BestValue · 19/04/2013 13:02

"(Sounds a lot like the Flying Spaghetti Monster too, btw)."

Do you have a book by the Flying Spaghetti Monster written millennia before this evidence was discovered or are you inventing him post hoc?

"1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause (in this case time, space and matter). Who says? When we get down to the quantum level, this cause & effect business seems to cease to have the same meaning and predictability that it does above it. So, it may well not be true in physics that everything that begins to exist must have a cause. And if not everything has to, why does the universe?"

To deny the law of cause and effect shows just how desperate atheists can get to avoid the logical conclusion that God exists. At the quantum level, predictability gets touchy but just because we can't predict a cause doesn't mean there isn't one. Cause and effect is the foundation of science. I tell ya . . . if atheists had started science it would have never got off the ground.

"When do we decide when something "began to exist" since absolutely everything we see around us is merely a reconfiguration of existing matter?"

You began to exist the moment your father's sperm joined with your mother's ovum. You did not exist before that. The material your are composed of existed but it was not you. Oh, the tap dancing that must be done. If I made irrational arguments like this, I'd never hear the end of it. I'm imploring people to look at the facts we can actually observe while atheist must resort to denying fundamental laws of physics and logic.

"3) Why must the cause be immaterial, non-spatial and timeless? What can you possibly know about any event or thing that happened before the universe even existed that could lead you to state it "must" be anything?"

The cause of matter must be immaterial. Otherwise, matter would already have to exist to cause itself. Irrational. Same goes for time and space. It is not an argument that will persuade everyone. But then, NO argument will persuade EVERYONE. Even an argument as water-tight as the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

"4) How do you know that any "cause" must be a sentient intelligence?"

The Kalam argument can't get you there - and it's not meant to. The Moral Argument gets you to a personal God. It's a cumulative case.

"5) What would lead you to conclude (if the above turned out to be true) that the sentient intelligence chose to incarnate himself as a mortal on our planet in order to have him sacrificed to himself?"

Because He said He did and everything else He said has come true so I trust Him on faith - but not blind faith. I'm sure if I felt like it I could turn everyone of those questions around and demolish naturalism too.

It ultimately always comes down to which view is more reasonable to believe. We determine that by who has more supporting evidence and is logically consistent. Atheism fails on both grounds. I would actually prefer to be an atheist. But I care more about truth than what feels good or is comforting.

BestValue · 19/04/2013 13:03

New article some might be interested in. I haven't read it yet.

creation.com/expanding-universe-1

BestValue · 19/04/2013 13:14

Part 2:

creation.com/expanding-universe-2

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 14:14

Sorry can't view videos at work...

I doubt they will change the mathematics for cosmological models though.

So it will still be true that the universe can be infinite in size but finite in time.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 19/04/2013 14:55

Because He said He did and everything else He said has come true so I trust Him on faith

He told you this personally did he? Or did you just read it in a book written by someone else?

So in Matthew 12:41 Jesus says "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it"

Yet the city of Nineveh hadn't existed for 600 years by the time Jesus came along, and it wouldn't appear that the entire city rose from the dead. So this is something he said which didn't come true.

BestValue · 19/04/2013 18:40

"Yet the city of Nineveh hadn't existed for 600 years by the time Jesus came along, and it wouldn't appear that the entire city rose from the dead. So this is something he said which didn't come true."

Because the day of judgment hasn't happened yet. But it's coming soon so get ready. Almost all the signs are fulfilled.

Januarymadness · 19/04/2013 18:50

any date you would like to pin yout reputation on?

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