A Question For Atheists.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

When and how did you decide that you didn't believe in god?

Oh, my apologies, I've just realised this thread is really A question for athiets. I do hope no one minds me posting my views on here and it is not my intention to offend anyone. [busmile]

Pedro - I am not a Christian for convenience, but by conviction. You seem to want all Christians (all 1.7 billion of them) to be exactly the same. Well, there is variation between individual Christians. But you can't say "explain why you believe in God", and when someone does say "but you don't fit my pre-conceived idea of what a Christian is, so I'm going to say you're not one". It's a bit "no true Scotsmans" fallacy. I am a Christian, and I have my reasons for believing in God - quite reasonable ones (at least to my mind).

LizzyDay - I hope my proviso that the search for truth is open-ended deals with the concern that the concept of God is nebulous. If I could neatly describe and contain the concept of God that concept would, by definition, be less than God. Note also that I recognise that the ongoing and open-ended nature of truth commits us to listen to one another and not to try and compel others to abandon their views in favour of our own. The most we can do is represent our understanding of what is true.

SGB - you havn't answered my question about where you gather your data from religion on. I'l ask again - how many churches have you been into in the last 5 or 10 years, particularly when there has been a service on, and how many Christians in those churches did you take the time to talk to in depth about how their faith really worked. If you are going to accuse a body of people of racism I am interested to know how you drew that conclusion.

As to the argument from objective ethics, and some of the responses here, I will try and get back to that later. I have to get the kids ready for church.

Best wishes,

Rosieres.

You seem to want all Christians (all 1.7 billion of them) to be exactly the same.

Not at all, but one of the fundamental things about Christianity is the concept of a prayer answering god. To liken that to two Scotsmen is preposterous. It would be more like saying "I'm a stamp collector but I don't like stamps so I go swimming instead"..... Not a stamp collector then.

If you don't believe in a prayer answering god then the majority of the bible is fiction to you, so how can you possibly call yourself a Christian?

If belief is innate then presumably sometimes a baby would grow up in a different faith to their parents?

I am childishly amused at this idea.

I was bought up with a catholic father and a Christian mother - both non practicing. I have a very vague recollection if going to Sunday School once and when I asked my mum about that was due to pressure from my Dad's parents although it was only once.

Anyway I've never really thought about God or Religion I've never had any interest and never thought I need a faith - although I don't really get what that means I'm just not bothered

However that's not to say I'm not a hypocrite the outstanding school near us is a CofE school which you have to attend etc to get you child in. So we thought we'd go along, which from looking at 3/4 of the congregation (trying to actively participate and impress the vicar) is I'm sure the only reason they were there.

Anyway we lasted 2 services. I stood there and couldn't to be honest believe what I was hearing. I really felt as though it was a form brain washing. For me there are far too many questions raised by religion and not enough answers.

If other people want to believe and find comfort in it then that is up to them I just don't.

I was brought up by Catholic parents and pretended to believe for their sake for most of my childhood.. I have never believed.

I felt sad as a child that I just didn't "get" it.........

Pedro, you seem to have made the leap from God as ground of being, rather than one object amongst many, to the nature of prayer, and your conclusions don't follow with logical necessity.

But I do believe in prayer, althgouh I should point out that Christians vary in their approach to prayer. Some would say that prayer is largely about the person praying opening themselves up to God so that they can change. So if I pray for the poor, I am not asking for God to change their circumstances, I am asking God to change me so that I will go and change their circumstances.

Others would say that God always answers prayers, but get round the problem of suffering and unanswered prayer by saying that sometimes God answers in ways we don't understand. I'm not entirely convinced here.

My own approach is that prayer is about changing the person who prays. I also believe that it is logically possible for God to intervene in response to some prayers while not breaching the limits set by the philosophical problem of suffering. It's a fairly nuanced position that I don't have time to go into here. But I do believe in prayer in those terms.

But I don't think you are in a position to say who is and isn't a Christian. If someone comes along who challenges your idea of what a Christian is you can either expand your concept of "Christian" to include them, or bury your head in the sand so you can stick with your strawman understanding of Christianity.

The bible teaches god as an entity to which you pray and worship, he even sent himself to earth to be resurrected on a slightly different day each year depending on the solar and lunar movements so to take a position where you don't believe in this entity is to not believe the religion. Why are you so scared of just believing what you believe without the grotesque weight of a church behind you.

It's such a shame that some people don't really understand what it is they are following and get convinced that they are part of a religion which they really are not.

If someone comes along who challenges your idea of what a Christian is you can either expand your concept of "Christian" to include them, or bury your head in the sand so you can stick with your strawman understanding of Christianity.

That's farcical. If someone came along and challenged my understanding of what it is to be a Christian by asking me to include their belief that garden fairies eat the pimples off their face at night and this entitles them to strangle children outside the local school (and yes I'm being extreme to make a point) I would certainly NOT expand my understanding of Christianity to include them.

The point is that it is the resolve of the RELIGIOUS to just roll over and believe things people tell them. I don't do that. I like to think about things properly. I think you are deluded with your own understanding of Christianity or at the very least, the church has told you that you are a Christian so you keep going back and putting your change in the collection pot.

Babies ARE born atheists - of course they are. Theism is an active belief in some god or another, and no one is brought into the world actively believing anything. They need to be taught.

I had quite a religious childhood - the first 10 years was overwhelmingly Catholic (first communion etc) then I went to a CofE boarding school with daily prayers, church on Sunday, grace before meals etc. But I never believed a single word of it - I don't know why. I just didn't.

Yet again the distinction needs to be made between the atheist attitude to beliefs as opposed to the believers themselves.

I have been knocking around too long to think that all believers are stupid. It's not that simple and it's manifestly not true. Although I do think that education plays a part - there is a tendency certainly that the more educated a person is, the greater the likelihood of atheism. This is borne out by several studies in case anyone wants to shout at me about that. (And yes, I do know there are lots of people with PhDs who are Christian & Muslim - I'm talking about tendencies and averages).

Having said that - I do think the beliefs themselves are pretty stupid. And the fact that they can only be supported by very flawed and completely wrong attempts at logic proves that. There are NO good reasons to believe in any god, not a single one. And when you have no reason to believe that something is true then that belief becomes, by definition, unreasonable.

I think that the idea of a universe creating being, the one who supposedly devised evolution & quantum mechanics, came up with a plan that involved sacrificing himself to himself to save us from himself is sheer lunacy. I can't imagine why anybody sensible could possibly believe such a thing and I would indeed say that such a belief is stupid - how can it be anything else? It flies in the face of common sense, quite apart for their being no evidence at all to support it.

But am I allowed to say that? No. I get called an ignorant bigot. Strangely, I don't get called these things if I say that horoscopes, homeopathy, psychics or ghosts are ridiculous - the most anyone says then is; "Oh well, that's your opinion". End of discussion.

But DARE to point out the inconsistencies and nonsense of religious belief and I'm a nasty piece of work, how dare I insult people like that?

I am long past caring. Religion HURTS people, every day all over the world. Over 90% of all terrorist attacks have a religious basis; young children are being murdered for being "witches" in Africa; gay people are being persecuted and murdered; girls are being forced into marriage; babies of both sexes are having their genitals mutilated; vulnerable Africans are being lied to about AIDS and prevented from being able to limit the amount of children they have; women are being treated as second class citizens; important science is being retarded; children are being taught bullshit in science lessons - I could go on. The point is this is ALL because of some religion or another.

Do I think that the liberal, middle class Christians of this country are responsible? No. But all the time you are shouting at people like me for pointing out the horrors of the RELIGION YOU SUBSCRIBE TO you are preventing the kinds of discussions that we need to be having as a species in order to stop this kind of thing.

With your hurt feelings & determination to take offence you are providing cover for the fundamentalists of your own religion to carry out the kind of atrocities I've just described - and that makes you complicit whether you like it or not.

Do I have respect for "faith"? No. It's intellectual cowardice, an excuse that believers have concocted that allows them to believe things that make little sense.

Do I have respect for the rights of the faithful to have faith? Sure. Freedom of mind & thought is important. Same as I respect the rights of astrology fans to read their horoscopes every day. Not my business & I couldn't care less - until it starts to hurt people, as religion is doing.

Hope this has finally gotten through. I am fucking sick to death of being called names when I have NEVER, not a single solitary time been rude about the intellectual capacity of people on these threads I've just thought it. I have addressed the beliefs and only the beliefs and been careful to do so. It's not my problem if you lack the emotional maturity to separate yourselves from the beliefs you hold.

Pedro - you are entitled to have your ideas of what a Christian should be, but you are not the final arbiter. I am a Christian - I absolutely am a Christian. I have huge experience of different Christians and I know what I am. I worked for 6 years in an Anglican diocese, alongside high church anglo-catholics, low church evangelicals and modernist liberals. I have studied theology at degree level, alongside people of different faiths and none. I have been to a large, ecumenical christian festival every August for the last 20 years and listened to religious speakers from all around the world. And I am licenced as a Reader in the C of E, where I work among a diverse congregation of over 150 week by week. I'm saying all this to show that I have come across an awful lot of Christians, and I know there is a lot of diversity in the Christian population.

If you were to say "Christians believe X, and you don't, so you can't be a Christian" it may be that you are incorrect in trying to pigeonhole Christians to fit your expectations. If you think I am deluded in my understanding of Christianity, I would like to hear where you have gained your understanding of what Christians should be. I would be interested to hear what you base your views on, and how broad a base of evidence you draw on. Because if you are serious in claiming you think for yourself, and not just accept a one dimensional view on limited evidence, I would be interested to see how you have done so in this instance. I wouldn't accuse you, as you have me, of just rolling over and accepting what you are told. Again, if you think that all religious people do that, I must tell you that you are wrong. Some might, so do some atheists, but in my experience most Christians have asked all sorts of questions in their time and their faith has evolved in all sorts of ways as a result. But I prefer to base my conclusions on experience, actually meeting people and talking to them, and not on my presumptions about how I think people ought to be.

I hope you can see that there is more Christianity, and people who call themselves Christians, than perhaps you assume. We don't all fit into neat boxes.

There are 33,000 different denominations of Christianity alone - so quite who decides who is a true Christian and who is not is anyone's guess.

I've heard that, in order to call yourself a Christian, all you have to believe is that the resurrection happened.

Since there's not the slightest shred of evidence that this ever happened, or ever could, then ALL Christianity is based on "faith" - a long, long way from the assertion that it's based on some kind of evidence. It isn't. And can't be - because there is none.

Going back to your original question. I was raised by parents who believe in god, one in a going to church way and the other is rebellious but believes. Everyone in my family has some relationship with faith. I was praying alone in my room at the age of 9 or 10 and stopped mid sentence with the realisation god does not exist. It seems I knew it as clearly as you believe you found god. I'm telling you this but I won't carry on with the thread because I do not respect religious beliefs as much as I do scientific understandings.

EllieArroway I was very moved by what you wrote. I think you might be surprised to know that you have more in common (please do not take offence) with soem Christians than you might expect! . I too am horrified by all the evil committed in the name of relgion or God. I totally disagree with the pressure put on people not to use birth control or condoms etc and many more things you mention. I know a Christian lady fighting aginst female genital mutilation. I just wanted to say that even though we may very much disagree on God, there are many things we may agree on and I wanted to say how much I support you for saying this even if we disagree I totally agree that the things you mention do need talking about and as Christians I belive (those of us who are, I mean) that we should not be so easily offended and instead we should look to the bigger picture. I am faily sure it is not so much the faith that is the problem (in teh context of what you describe) but how it affects the lives of people. I hope that makes sense and I really do not want to cause offense, I recognise this thread is asking Athiests what they believe, but I did just want to respond to you Ellie.

Twentythirteen, please don't go. I know that this thread has gone slightly off the original topic, but it was meant to be atheism and your experience of it. I find the similarities between our experiences really interesting.

Was it a big moment for you? Did you tell your family?

Italian I know. Most Christians would agree with me, because most Christians (and Muslims) are decent people distressed by suffering in the world.

The point is that crying "bigot" whenever someone tries to address the BELIEFS (like Dione, the OP has done more than once) themselves means that nobody who isn't brave feels that they want to discuss the issue at all.

I'm brave - and I know that I'm not a bigot, ignorant, closed minded or nasty. It's just that I can't summon up the same respect for the BELIEFS that I can for the BELIEVERS. And I'm not prepared to lie and pretend that I can or do.

As Johann Hari put it...."I respect you too much to respect your ridiculous beliefs".

It doesn't work both ways, noticeably. I wouldn't care a monkey's cuss if someone insulted the beliefs of atheists (although they'd have a job since we only share the lack of one particular belief) - I'd be delighted. I'm always, always happy to have the opportunity to make my case. I wouldn't take it as a slight at all.

But religious people are emotionally attached to their beliefs, which makes it impossible to have a sensible discussion without them all getting huffy & calling me names.

And - to stress, it's this "offence" that is providing cover for the actions of the fundamentalists. If "nice people" should be tip-toeing around the issue on a live and let live basis, then who is there who will start pointing out that: "No, the Bible is NOT the word of the Lord and shouldn't be used as justification for torturing Nigerian children or shooting abortion doctors"?

Just nasty shits like me.

And Dawkins.
And Harris.
And Hitchens.
and so on.....I am in good company at least.

Ellie, I'm so glad you've managed to put into words how I've been feeling too without sounding like you're just making an off the cuff 'offensive' comment.

The people likely to be on Mumsnet are, of course, the 'moderately' religious, so of course they will distance themselves from the extremist terrorists, but I don't think they realise that by propping up their chosen faith from the bottom it allows the extremists to hide behind the perceived 'goodness' of the religion to carry out the most horrific acts known to man. They probably also don't realise that it's not just moderates and extremists, but that there are a whole range of types in between, some of whom are prepared to execute their beliefs with unacceptable force or prejudice. Often these are also just 'normal' members of society.

My personal view?
I was Catholic by tradition, went to youth club, even became a Eucharistic minister, never really questioned things.
Our youth group had a new leader, someone who had 'taken to Christ'. Happened to be someone who had bullied me so severely as a teen I was suicidal. But hey, he had said sorry to God so everything was ok....
I spent a week at 'Spring Harvest' where everyone told me it was how I chose to accept God or not, frankly I realised for my sanity I had to get away from the constant self-denial and delusion.
Now as an avowed atheist I know I can do things, question things, accept things on my own terms.

Ellie I am not offended by your views. I know you don't need to know that but you said 'all' in your post and I wanted you to know that some Christians are able to listen to these debates without being offended.

I wish you peace and am sorry you have been so frustrated and insulted by discussions.

Yes, we Christians can be very attached to our beliefs. I know that a lot of Christians do work for justice and so although I am aware some do a great deal of evil in the name of God, some also do good.

I am going to bow out of discussions because I am aware that many others have things to say but I wanted you to know that I am sorry for the frustrations you express.

Ellie, when on this thread did I call you a bigot?.

Actually Dione, Ellie never said it was on this thread or that it was directed at her.

Well I have no fear of calling it when I see it and I am sure that it was dealt with on the thread, at the time.

Age about 6, when the Vicar came to our C of E Primary School and said something like "I think there's something special about Church schools", and I thought "Who on earth are you? I've never seen you before." And, for what it's worth, I never saw him again.

Dione Not on this thread, but you have in the past. It was when I pointed out that Christian beliefs make no sense. You'd been trying to insist otherwise. I disengaged at that point because I know that when people start slinging those kinds of insults about that I have won (and I usually do). I also spent an unfortunate amount of time trying to explain to you an analogy after you thought I'd accused all Christians of having drink problems, ffs.

My secularism is a more important part of who I am than my atheism. I strongly, strongly believe that each and everyone of us has the absolute right to believe whatever they like and worship whoever they like. We only get one life, and Muslims & Christians et al must have the freedom to spend that life how they wish. That's important to me. Of course, my right not to have other people's beliefs imposed on me is equally important & secularism is the only way to cover all bases.

So, being called a bigot by someone who clearly has no real conception of what the word means pisses me off A LOT.

But this does not mean that I feel the slightest compunction in refusing to afford religion more respect than it has ever deserved. This idea that it's ring fenced & you can't be critical because you'll hurt people's feelings is exactly why fundamentalism is flourishing all over the world. People take offence over other people's opinions and WE ALLOW IT! Why?

Italian I'm sorry if I said "all" Christians. I didn't mean all. I could reel off the names of several MN Christians who are more than happy to get involved in a debate, and don't automatically get offended. But I have also been called a nasty troll (quite recently), ignorant, closed minded, bigoted (as we've seen) and various other pleasantries from loving Christians.

But to address your actual question, Dione - I never "discovered" I was an atheist. It's not on an equal footing with "finding God".

I agree with Sam Harris completely: "Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs".

It's not a belief in itself - it's simply the position of those of us unconvinced by theistic arguments. When did you discover you were an aleprechaunist?