Atheists on belief threads. Why?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

While there are sometimes interesting threads where atheists and believers discuss and debate religion, it seems to me that increasingly atheists only come onto threads here to poopoo or disrespect the beliefs of others.

Am I right about this and if not then what is the reasoning behind the posts where atheists call the beliefs of others rubbish etc?

i wasn't debating catholic religion, the other person was ginger

I explained why and how I saw something - it is ginger that is catholic

it is basic theology - do people have to understand theology before they can post on this thread then?

Sorry ivykaty it's easy to forget that not everyone knows the full text of the mass - although a recent translation of the mass meant loads of Catholics were stumbling over them too .

I guess that doesn't help to eradicate misunderstandings as I think people hear much more about views expressed on controversial issues rather than the central tenets of the faith.

This is a link to the words of the mass and if you scroll down the words for both the Nicene and Apostles creed are there. We recite them in mass and they summarise the central beliefs of Christians, well at least those of a Catholic persuasion anyway.
catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass-RM3.htm

The Eucharist is Holy Communion. Catholics believe this becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ and it probably the single most important part of being a Catholic rather than say C of E. Taking the Eucharist strengthens our faith and it is amazing in a way I struggle to explain if I am honest.

Other Christians believe communion is more symbolic. No less right but a different approach but it is a key reason why I am, and remain, Catholic rather than any other denomination.

This is why the stuff I don't like does not cause me to leave the RC church. To me it is not a central part of the faith and I believe that I am far more use in the church than out of it in terms of challenging things I find prejudiced or wrong.

I hope that explains a bit.

I haven't read all this OP but my understanding is that everyone has a belief system even if it is atheism. that is what they believe.

@ivykaty It is odd to accuse someone of picking and choosing bits from their religion when you have no basic understanding of that religion. What exactly, are your opinions based on?

Surely a negative opinion of someone, based on no factual knowledge of the situation is bigotry pure and simple.

thanks I have come across heretics before so understand that, not heard it in the words you gave though,

so if I have it right you stay within this religion due to the holy communion being important as it is different in other religions and you don't feel you would get the same feeling?

ivykaty I am not sure where the heretic bit came from. This would be an old catholic vs protestant debate but I think you will find us all to be much more accepting of each other generally these days ` - just accept that we have different approaches and perspectives.

But yes the reason I am a Catholic Christian is down to the eucharist. It's stronger than just a 'feeling' that I couldn't get anywhere else though. It's more akin to not eating or being separated for over from my children, absolutely fundamental to me but really hard to explain to others.

The difference between the church and any oher big corporation is that the church sets itself in judgement over others and as a moral arbiter of society. As such it should be above reproach. And it isn't.

ginger thank you for your time and trouble to explain why you do what you do and not take offense by anything I have posted. It makes me see from a different angle.

Can I also ask did you choose to be a catholic or where you brought up a catholic and do you think it makes a difference?

@seeker but you don't accept it's authority so why are you bothered?

Plus the idea that someone who is judgemental should be beyond reproach is not necessarily a given. Do you feel the same way about journalists for example?

Thing is, the eucharist stuff is unimportant, irrelevant mythological blah to other people. The Catholic Church's power to deny women access to healthcare, to deny gay people the right to live free of discrimination, to condone and support the child abusers on its staff, that's why people despise the Catholic Church and find it hard to accept that anyone could continue to be loyal to it.

Thing is, you're not interested in why anybody is a Roman Catholic, because you already know what you think about it. You know what you think is important, and what is unimportant. You know what you think is true and what you think is rubbish. I don't really see that there is any point in anybody trying to explain their point of view to you.

But guess what, that doesn't make you enlightened. It makes you a bigot.

I'm not an RC, and hold no brief for defending the Roman Catholic Church. But the bigotry I see around, the anti-Catholic prejudice makes me feel sick.

ivykaty no problem. Thanks for listening.

My journey to where I am now has been by quite a scenic route. I was baptised Catholic aged about 6 weeks but as my family were not particularly practising at that time for all sorts of reasons, I became closer to the church over many years and was actually not confirmed until I was an adult.

I am not sure what difference that makes as I can only speak from my own experience but, although in many ways I wish I had become closer sooner, I have had lots of opportunities to explore my faith as an adult and long may I continue to do so.

The mystery of the eucharist may seem an unimportant myth to some people but it isn't to me and I can only explain what I believe to be right. Other people will reach their own conclusions.

"@seeker but you don't accept it's authority so why are you bothered?

Plus the idea that someone who is judgemental should be beyond reproach is not necessarily a given. Do you feel the same way about journalists for example?"

Because I care very much about the influence the church had has on other people in the world.

And one of the functions of the church is to be a moral touchstone to it's followers. Nobody expects that of journalists.

I too care very much about the influence the church has had in the world. Let's look at the historical record shall we? Here are some examples:

Hospitals: these are a Christian invention, and originate in the specifically Christian practice of caring for the indigent, sick and hungry. The Christian practice of establishing hospitals was without precedent in the ancient world.

Universities: are another specifically Christian invention, again without precedent in the ancient world.

Individual rights: are a direct descendent of the Christian conviction that each person is uniquely loved and valuable in God's eyes. Without Christianity, the idea of the unique individual with inalienable rights could not have developed from the ideas current in the ancient world.

Universal education: could not have happened unless Christians had established schools that were free of charge for the poor. No such idea had been thought of until the Church did it.

The Welfare State: has its origins in the Christian practice of charity - unknown before Christianity- and in the importance given by Christians to caring for the poor. Again, this would not have developed as a practice from the ideas of virtue current in the ancient world.

There are more, but those will do for starters. It's all very well to talk about the damage the Church has done and I freely admit that the Church has done some terrible things (though some of the terrible things it has said to have done it hasn't see witch burning, for example). But it's also important to set that beside what is good in our world that is a direct result of the activity of the Church.

I come on because I am interested in how people of faith view things because of that faith. I'm interested in diversity and culture.

Hence the smallpox thread.

Also I'm a teacher and I teach people from many different backgrounds so I do try to find out about the beliefs / mores of my students.

I find many posts by crescentmoon interesting and with clear explanations.

Niminy- I think a Muslim reading your post might have a few comments on your last post! Or an Ancient Greek. Or a Roman.

It is not bigoted to say that the real world impact of supporting an institution that abuses individuals is more important than the performance of a ritual that is founded in myth and superstition.

I really don't think much of any god that would be pleased that someone continued to perform a ritual which in order to do so they had ignore and give tacit support to an institution that makes the lives of thousands of people more difficult than they need to be. And as there is no god, that ritual is performed solely for the benefit of the person participating in it.

niminy some great examples of how Christianity has contributed in a very positive way to society. If they are not unique to Christianity who cares? It didn't make them any less important to those who benefited.

I realise that my views are not going to alter the minds of many people, I don't expect them too but I am happy to explain my reasons.

I still reiterate that it is better, for me, to remain within an organisation and debate and discuss the best ways to ensure that it is 'a church for the poor' to quote Pope Francis (I take poor to mean not just poverty but those who are needy in any way).

I am up now to go to early morning mass for Passion Sunday. Coming into Holy Week (the week between Passion or Palm Sunday) there will be so many opportunities to reflect on the humble things Jesus did, his teachings about love and to think about how to apply these better within my own life and to act on this. Millions of other Christians will be doing the same (not that this just happens in Holy Week).

This are the central teachings of Christianity and I cannot help but see the positives these bring.

The trouble is that many of the things that niminy says are just not true. No universities, charity or hospitals before Christianity? Really? No individual rights? No education? All these things are more than 2000 years old!

Of course the church has done good things- nobody denies that. But the bad is so very bad- the damage being done in sub Saharan Africa by the church's stance on condom use for example...why are people skirting around this point?

Niminy that last post is utterly ridiculous. The Christian involvement in the institutions you mention is only 'Christian' because that's what there was at the time, that was the ruling body. And like Seeker says; Romans, Ancient Greece, the rest of the world...

Humans do generally like to help others, especially those less fortunate. And through different periods of time the good things have been done for different reasons. Why people still feel they need some supernatural label to do good things for I have no idea. Why not just get on and do the nice things you want to do?

Everything else religion is is a complete waste. You can live a good life without wasting so much time.

I second seeker's post
"Niminy- I think a Muslim reading your post might have a few comments on your last post! Or an Ancient Greek. Or a Roman."

Ginger "If they are not unique to Christianity who cares?"
People should care when false claims are being made.

Ginger illustrates my point perfectly. All those millions of man hours sitting around thinking about being good and doing good. They all leave mass feeling all warm and fuzzy but actually they've just wasted all that time.

"When I do good things I feel good: when I do bad things I feel bad. That is my religion." Attributed to Abraham Lincoln.

"I'm often asked how come I don't rape and murder without instruction from God. I always answer that I do rape and murder all I want, which is none. If you need a God to tell you how to act, then it's not religion you lack but moral empathy". Penn Jillette.

"Religion poisons everything". Christopher Hitchens.

"Try not to be a cunt today". NicholasTeakozy.

Brilliant quotes. I shall use them. Thank you.

Getting to grips I really do not believe my post does illustrate your post perfectly as you have missed out the part that is not only about reflecting on the teachings but also the key words 'and to act on this'.

So it isn't about just sitting around getting a warm, fuzzy feeling but taking action too. I am not going to get into giving you a list of examples of these actions as these are between those individuals and / or groups and God. Yes, many of those people would do good acts anyway just because they are lovely, kind people. It doesn't make it any less in Jesus's name.

The warm, fuzzy feeling often eludes me to be honest as I feel like I can never do enough.

I have been reflecting on the posts of seeker and whilst I do not share her despair over the construct of the Catholic Church it has made me think about how else I can play my part more in the development and progress of the church; so there is my challenge to think about this during Holy Week and what I, personally, need to do.