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Original poster

Atheists on belief threads. Why?

410 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 21/03/2013 22:55

While there are sometimes interesting threads where atheists and believers discuss and debate religion, it seems to me that increasingly atheists only come onto threads here to poopoo or disrespect the beliefs of others.

Am I right about this and if not then what is the reasoning behind the posts where atheists call the beliefs of others rubbish etc?

OP posts:
MadHairDay · 23/03/2013 12:03

Are you talking the hierarchy of the Catholic Church seeker, or hierarchy of churches in general? I can't comment about the catholic church, but in terms of the Anglican church, yes, there is rotten wood, and yes, there are bits I question. But by and large, I have a lot of respect for most bishops/clergy etc, although by no means all, and certainly by no means all in the wider Anglican communion.

Gingerdodger · 23/03/2013 12:34

Hideous suggests that everything about everyone within the 'hierarchy' is abhorrent. I don't believe this, like MHD there are many individuals I have respect for - I don't necessarily agree with them on everything but that doesn't make them, or the entire institution, hideous in every way.

There have been hideous things done in the name of various religions (not least under the auspices of the RC church) I agree. These cannot and should not be defended. However, again, I do not see that this those religious groupings should disband. Far better that they face the truth and move forward. I agree that the catholic church has had mixed success with this. It's got a long way to go but that shouldn't stop us continuing to push forward and if that causes debate within that's only to the good as far as I can see.

Again that debate has a long way to go.

I get a lot of support though my church as do millions of other people. It isn't hideous to me and it enriches my life in so many ways. I also see, first hand, that the work of the church is not just confined to supporting it's own.

Perfect it isn't, hideous it isn't either.

I think this is the same for many Christians and other people of Faith.

seeker · 23/03/2013 12:41

That's why I made a clear distinction between the members of the Church and the hierarchy.

I think that while the "few rotten apples" argument is sometimes valid, there comes a point where the whole barrel is contaminated- even the few good apples are so tainted by association that the only way they could maintain any integrity is by getting out of the barrel completely. (May have stretched that analogy a little far!)

I think that is the state the Catholic Church is in now.

I'm talking about the Catholic Church, by the way because it is the one I know best. I am not either excusing or condemning other denominations. Although I do think that lifting the lid on any institution would reveal some very nasty things.

SolidGoldBrass · 23/03/2013 14:57

Niminy: OK, so you believe your guff. I accept you believe it and support your right to do so. But why should I treat the guff you believe in any differently than the equally sincerely held beliefs of other people, eg that the earth is flat, that there are fairies at the bottom of their garden, that homeopathy works, or that aliens have built a base underneath the desert sands? They're all equally silly things to believe in, and respecting people's right to believe them doesn't oblige the rest of us to take any one of the beliefs any more seriously than the rest.

ethelb · 23/03/2013 16:33

@seeker why is it that you know more about the catholic church than any other denomination?

ivykaty44 · 23/03/2013 16:40

but can you understand that to me as a none beleiver I find the wider family - in your analogy - biogoted and having comitted awful crimes I find it really unpleasant and wonder why you assosiate yourself with these people, becasue that is what I see you doing.

What you seem to my mind is that you cherry pick the nice parts of your religion and take the nice bits

I still though am left feeling confused as this to me shows the religion you belong to or follow that they are ok to do these awful things as there followers will ignore the bits they don't agree with and in effect santuntion there actions

seeker · 23/03/2013 17:01

Ethelb- why do you ask?

seeker · 23/03/2013 17:15

Actually, ethelb- I know why you ask. And I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not lapsed! I was brought up in a catholic country and have many catholic family members. And I've read a lot about it.

ethelb · 23/03/2013 17:18

I just want to know. A lot of people (in RL, not just on MN) often criticise the Catholic Church (for some good reasons if I am honest) and then follow it up by claiming that they are only talking about the Catholic Church as it is the only one they know about, and that they actually feel that way about organised religion. I think to make the point that they aren't just bigotted against the Catholic Church.

But it is odd that it is the case that they know more about Catholicism, when we live in an Anglican country. The number of Catholics in this country is pretty small.

ethelb · 23/03/2013 17:18

That's very presumptuous, I didn't think you were lapsed.

Gingerdodger · 23/03/2013 18:30

I can appreciate that it is confusing for others to understand how I reconcile my personal beliefs with those which others see to be a central part if church teaching.

However, for me it is quite simple. As a Catholic Christian I am called to follow my conscience. The core part of my faith is expressed through the creed which I have no issue with stating as my belief. I believe that receiving the eucharist is central to my christian faith, hence I am a Catholic.

The rest is between me and God.

DomesticCEO · 23/03/2013 18:33

Ethelb, I think that's because the CofE tends to be a more liberal religion than Catholicism - many of the Catholic religion's ideas are so abhorrent (views on abortion, homosexuality, contraception in developing countries, rape, etc, etc) to people like me that we tend to read alot more about it and therefore may have stronger views on it than we do on the CofE.

I have an IVF baby for example and know that the Catholic church does not support IVF.

ethelb · 23/03/2013 18:40

@domesticceo but orthodox judaism and islam don't really approve of IVF babies either do they?

Neither support abortion or homosexuality and don't suggest women use contraception with gay abandon either. (I don't know what you mean by views on rape?).

I'm not suggesting that their aren't people in those religions who feel those doctrines are abhorrent, but why aren't they discussed as much as Catholicism?

I honestly don't think I would be as peeved off the next time someone launches into an 'I hate catholics rant' at the next dinner party if they were to criticise other religions as freely (this has frequently happened with an orthodox jewish person or muslim sat next to me, giving me pitying looks btw Wink.

DomesticCEO · 23/03/2013 18:45

Judaism rarely gets discussed in this country, except in relation to Israel - and Islam is villified (IMO) far more than Catholicism now, but for much more general reasons.

I don't hate Catholics (some of my best friends are Catholics Wink) but I find the hierarchy of the Catholic church abhorrent. And their behaviour over the paedophilia scandal has disgraced them beyond belief (pardon the pun).

ethelb · 23/03/2013 18:50

@domesticceo but where are all the threads about Islam. I can think of a couple where someone who is not muslim has started up a thread criticising it, but no where near the number criticising Catholicism. Why is that, when it is vilified more? (i'm not denying that Muslims do get a very hard time in the UK, but when people talk about how much they hate organised religion, it is always, always Catholicism, despite being in an Anglican country).

Plus why do you find the hierarchy of the catholic church abhorrent? Do you find all hierarchies abbhorent?

Or do you mean the people in the upper echelons of the RC Church? In which case fair enough.

seeker · 23/03/2013 18:59

I am happy to criticise any organised religion- I am an equal opportunities atheist! However, I don't actually know enough about any non Christian religion to challenge it knowledgeably.

I am very much opposed to the established church in the UK- as a British person, it is the one that imposes itself most on my personal life. My beef about the Catholic Church is much more political- it has such a pernicious effect on the lives of so many.

I have noticed before a tendency in Catholics to see persecution when what is actually happening is a spotlight being turned on wrongdoing and wrong thinking.

seeker · 23/03/2013 19:00

"Plus why do you find the hierarchy of the catholic church abhorrent? Do you find all hierarchies abbhorent? "

I find any hierarchy which systematically covered up the abuse of children abhorrent.

ethelb · 23/03/2013 19:06

@seeker it is clear you have a good understanding of the Catholic church, but why do you think other people do it? (I'm not saying I don't think some of the criticism is valid, just overly narrow imo)

And with regards to heirarchies that cover up child abuse, what about the bbc? orthodox jewish communities in the UK? When did you last comment on a thread about those?

ethelb · 23/03/2013 19:08

@seeker plus you say you grew up in a catholic country so experienced it first hand, most people in the uK haven't though.

seeker · 23/03/2013 19:09

If there were threads about either of those institutions that I was interested in commenting on (I have commented on BBC ones) then I would. I'm not sure I get your point- you're not, surely, saying that the a Catholic Church is being unfairly singled out when it comes to child abuse?

ethelb · 23/03/2013 19:17

No I am not saying that, I am saying it is odd that it gets so much more attention than other institutions who do the same thing. That is not the same as claiming it has been unfairly singled out.

ivykaty44 · 23/03/2013 19:23

thanks ginger for appreciating I don't understand why you do this, unfortunatley I don't understand your answer, it isn't simple to me and I don't actually understand what you mean by creed or the rest of the sentance - so it fails to answer anything. Not being funny in anyway it is just simply not something I know about.

Hopefully though it explains to you how I see religion and people that then follow a particular religion.

ethelb · 23/03/2013 19:25

@ivy why are you debating Catholicism when you don't understand that answer. It is quite basic theology.

seeker · 23/03/2013 19:37

Well, obviously a church caught out in condoning/concealing child abuse is going to get more attention- churches are supposed to be "better" than secular organizations. We're supposed to be able to trust priests- they have a very special place in society. Unlike disc jockeys.........

ethelb · 23/03/2013 19:48

@seeker I have to disagree with you on that point (which you do seem very hung up on) about catholic priests being considered "better" than those in secular organisations in UK society.

I think the only way they may be seen as better is in that they have given themselves to public service, but I don't hink the 'next person' would see them as any "better" than a doctor, priest or charity worker actually. So your argument doesn't really stand I'm afraid.

The UK public do not consider Catholic priests better, in fact I would argue they have been viewed with suspicion since the reformation. They may have been considered 'better' by some catholics, but that is no different to how an anglican priest, imam, or rabbi may be viewed by their 'flock'.