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Philosophy/religion

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The Great Jesus debate. Did he exist at all - and if he did, what reasons do we have to believe he was divine?

342 replies

EllieArroway · 05/03/2013 13:51

Madhairday and I have been plotting behind the scenes to have this debate as we think it will be interesting, both for us and for others.

Mad is a Christian & I am an atheist. I will leave it entirely up to her to present her case.

Mine is:

It's impossible to conclude that Jesus actually existed at all given that there's simply no evidence to work with. I am aware that the majority (although not all) of scholars, both secular & religious, have concluded that he did exist, but this is for inferential reasons not evidential ones, so the issue is nowhere near as cut and dried as many people suppose.

While I am generally happy to accept that there was some man, probably called Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus, who lived in the Galilean region at the beginning of the 1st century & who may have died by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans - I don't feel that this is particularly significant or justifies anyone in believing that he was divine.

I also believe that nearly all of the "Jesus story" - the nativity, the miracles, the resurrection etc is complete myth and never happened at all.

I have continually pointed out on many threads that "There's no evidence that Jesus existed" and been called ignorant and so forth. So, this is my opportunity to make my case and demonstrate that this is, in fact, a correct statement.

So, I'm kicking of this (hopefully) interesting discussion with:

There is no evidence that Jesus the man existed. Discuss Wink

(By the way, this is an open discussion for anyone to join in, ask questions, make points etc, it's not just for Mad and I).

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niminypiminy · 11/03/2013 09:55

Lurchers this is a tangent, but it is not a matter of historical record that the Church tortured and burnt thousands of witches. Where the church was in charge of investigating accusations of witchcraft, they were mostly dismissed, and numbers of executions were very low indeed. Where the state was in charge of investigating accusations of witchcraft (eg in England and Scotland) numbers of convictions and executions were very much higher. The scandal of the witch trials has to be laid squarely at the door of the secular state, not the church (and in particular, not at the door of the Roman Catholic Church).

HolofernesesHead · 11/03/2013 10:25

Lurchers, my problem with your point there is, as I keep hammering out, how do you decide what is 'hearsay'? How does 'hearsay' work? Even if I were athesist / agnostic, I wouldn't be able to agree with you without hearing really compelling reasons for assessing some things as 'herarsay' and other things as good evidence. We haven't even stated talking about what the ancient texts are yet! How on earth can we say if they are aevidence of anything at all?

Re. Ellie's statements, not that i want to be unduly harsh (esp. as she dosen't seem to be around at the moment), she has said quite a few things that are untrue / unsubstantiated. Jesus' not knowing Greek was one of them - a minor point, yes. That the scholarly consensus is that the Gospels aren't usefully thought of as reflecting communities is another untrue comment. She hasn't answered / substantiated her reasons for disallowing the Pauline corpus as any sort of evidence for anything, so maybe she will yet substantiate / defend her opinions on that one. She also hasn't substantiated / defended her ignoring of other 1st c. Christian texts which didn't make it into the NT (e.g. Didache, 1 Clement). She may yet defend that from a 'this is why I disallowed these texts, and this is how I reached that viewpoint' POV. ' I could pick up on more (I've not even mentioned 2nd c. sources yet, or Josepus in any detail)But there are lots of loose threads handing.

I'm kind of trained to see all of this (I would be even if I weren't a Christian) so I am going to find all the flaws in the arugument. Funnily enough, one of my tutors way back when said that what we were being trained for wasn't so much theology as advocacy (in a legal sense - this was in a secular university, he wasn't saying we'd all become apologists for the Christian faith). Studying theology rigorously does seriously train you to assess arguments of all types, not just those relating to faith. One of the many reasons why I defend its place within the secular university!

MostlyLovingLurchers · 11/03/2013 11:11

I'm not going to get drawn on the witch trials and persecution of other heretics as you are right in the respect that it is not a clear cut issue, which is not to say that the church is in no way to blame - far from it. It is however irrelevent to the historicity of Jesus (maybe one for another thread). The point is simply that the evidence used to condem those accused of witchcraft (by both state and church) carried a very low burden of proof.

I get what you are saying about methodology, but it still stands that if your source material is unreliable then you are simply weeding out the bits that are more unreliable than others. What is left is not evidence of the type that would be acceptable as proof to anyone without faith, and at best leaves open the possibility that there could have been a historical Jesus.

niminypiminy · 11/03/2013 11:19

Lurchers, the point is that your methodology is how you determine which bits of evidence are unreliable and which can stand.

sieglinde · 11/03/2013 11:20

Mostlyloving, just want to say niminy is right about the witchtrials. It's not really a matter of debate now among academics, though there are plenty of nutters amateur historians eager to make a polemical point. I can give you references for direct comparisons, if you like. For instance, the Spanish Inquisition only condemned TWO witches...

MostlyLovingLurchers · 11/03/2013 11:40

Well i would understand hearsay (nearly typed heresy!) to be based on the reports of others. That is not such a problem if those reports can be looked at and can be backed up by other independant sources contemporary to that event that say the same thing. Without this back up you have little but rumour.

I mentioned Buddha before - i am quite ashamed to say that i never really gave much thought to whether he was a real person. Having looked at this a bit (thanks to this thread!) i find no, there is no reliable contemporary evidence that he existed. Any written evidence comes later, and sometimes is contradictory. Sometimes new documents have been found that throw some new light, but nothing that amounts to proof. I now have to re-evaluate and think ok, he may not have existed as an individual. I draw the same conclusion looking at the arguments put forward so far for a historical Jesus.

If you can put forward an ancient text written during Jesus' lifetime by an eyewitness to the events they are describing, and then showed me a second text written by an independent author describing the same thing then i would be interested. I would say, just because something is written after the event it does not mean that it isn't true, but that it needs to be based on reliable, source material, and that is what (i think) is lacking here. Of course, just because something is written at the same time doesn't automatically make it true either.

Re Ellie's posts - i did say most not all!

MostlyLovingLurchers · 11/03/2013 11:41

Yes - but plenty of other heretics.

MadHairDay · 11/03/2013 13:11

Afternoon all

Ellie, hope you are OK, you've been quiet?

I didn't know that about the witch trials. Very interesting! (my mediaeval history is somewhat lacking)

Have a busy day, but will try and get on at some point later.

HolofernesesHead · 11/03/2013 13:50

Hi MadHair! Hope you're feeling better now.

Lurchers, the big problem I have with your point here (and I'm sure I'd say this regardless of my own faith commitment) is that you, as someone living in 2013, presumably western Europe, are conditioned by your own context (i.e. post-Enlightenment European thought). We value books and things written down. If we want something to carry authority, we write it (e.g. marriage certificate) .

Someone from the 1st c. would be as equally conditioned by his / her context (say, the Mediterranean Greco-Roman-Jewish milieu that led to the growth of Christianity). What you value (written words) are not what the 1st c. person values - she values the spoken word of a reliable witness - to her, that spoken word carries way more authority than anything written down. Writing is only useful, to her, if it points to the spoken words of the reliable witness. There's only a point in writing things down if the reliable witness isn't there in person. So IMO what the written texts (that we know about) from the 1st c. represent, is the tip of a huge iceberg of thought and discourse, the vast majority of which was spoken.

So if you imagine yourself sitting down with Chloe from 1st c. Corinth and asking her for at least two pieces of paper mentioning Jesus that could be dated back to his lifetime, she'd look puzzled and say 'Whyever do you want that? Paul's due here in two weeks, and he met the apostles, who met Jesus...' So much in the 1st c. written texts is about the handing on of traditions / beliefs from one community to another; that's what is valued, and preserved, which is why the rites of christian baptism and the sharing of bread and wine started so early, because they were enacted within communities.

Any society preserves the things they value, in forms that are shaped by their worldviews. Think about what was rescued from the rubble of the Blitz in WW2 - things that are meaningful to the people who are there at the time. Now think about an historian coming along and using what wasn't found in the rubble as evidence that it wasn't in the homes that were bombed. It's a weak argument, and no serious historian would go down that route. the much better way would be to build up the best picture possible of life in pre-Blitz London and to construe from there what is most historically plausible to have been found in the homes. Do you see what I'm saying? I am absolutely sure that I'd be saying all of this whether or not I were a Christian myself. It's about historical integrity / plausibility.

EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 15:54

Hello everyone. Still here, just had a weekend away. Going to catch up on posts now.

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EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 16:16

'The God Delusion' is, IMO, an atheist apologetic work Absolute nonsense. Do you know what "apologetics" actually is? I doubt it, if you did you'd understand that it's impossible to apply it to atheism Hmm

Nothing you've said, literally nothing, amounts to "evidence". What's the passover got to do with anything? So, the early Christians believed xyz....so what? Does what the believers of Mithras believed in prove Mithras existed? Besides which - this all comes from the Bible. We are dealing with extra-biblical sources here, can we stick to that for now, thanks.

Do you accept that everything I've said about the extra-Biblical "sources" is correct or not?

You keep taking everything off at a tangent and it's hard to keep track. I won't discuss the Bible or anything in it until we've dealt with the likes of Tacitus, Pliny etc. Because, according to Mad this accounts for a large part of the "evidence" for Jesus.

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EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 16:22

The wide majority of scholars do see the first passage relating to Jesus in Josephus as authentic, do you think that this one is a fallacy as well Ellie? Out of interest, as you state there is no mention

I'm not sure they do, Mad - the evidence that the passage is completely faked is overwhelming, I'll explain why very shortly. In any event, it's far, far too wobbly to be admitted into evidence.

Can I take it you accept my assertions about Tacitus, Pliny etc - that they don't & can't provide evidence that Jesus existed?

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EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 16:27

And there's no archaeological evidence for Nazareth, Mad. I think it probably existed, but no one knows exactly where. It was not in the same place as modern Nazareth is.

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HolofernesesHead · 11/03/2013 16:29

Ellie, I do love your style! 'Absolute nonsense.' Great! Grin

Apologia is a Greek word meaning, literally, 'from words'; what it means is a formal defense of opinions or actions. Could apply to pretty well anything and everything, including atheism.

I'm not trying to take anything off track. I'm asking the prior question, of how we work out what is and isn't admissible as evidence. Until we get this one sorted, I don't see how we can sensibly assess anything that any one of us might think of as evidence.

I also don't think that the biblical / extra-biblical distinction is v. useful from a 1st c POV as the writings of Paul, the evangelists etc weren't yet thought of as 'the Bible.'

HolofernesesHead · 11/03/2013 16:34

PS I hope you had a nice weekend away! Smile

MadHairDay · 11/03/2013 16:55

Hello Ellie. :)

There's a pretty much unanimous agreement among scholars that the passage about James the brother of Jesus is authentic, and a wide agreement that the passage with interpolations is partially authentic, enough to provide some interesting near-contemporary insight at least. I've never read any overwhelming evidence it is faked, so will be interested to hear that.

As for Tacitus, Pliny, Suetonius et al - well, I think that they provide evidence in the sense of what was happening at the time - so no, not 'contemporary evidence of Jesus', but early descriptions of what followers of Jesus were up to. I do not think they can be discounted, because they show, if nothing else, that there were followers of this Christ and they were strong in number if annoying to the Romans Wink Being close to the event in terms of ancient writings in general they need a place in the discussion. They prove there was a man called Christ who started a movement. It's the historicity versus historical Jesus thing - they can be used more to argue the former, but for the latter I would prefer to rely on the Pauline writings, the gospels, other NT writings, early Christian writings and finally Josephus.

MadHairDay · 11/03/2013 16:58

I don't know about location of Nazareth in modern times, but there is archaeological evidence now for the Nazareth of Jesus' time. There was much argument against this years ago but more recent evidence has proved the argument to be a fallacy.

EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 18:02

Right -so Josephus :)

For those who don't know, he's considered the most important extra-Biblical source that the Christians have.

Yet again, he was not a contemporary of Jesus, since he was born after Jesus supposedly died, but he's pretty close and SHOULD be a very valuable source of information.

He was native of Judea and prior to the war in 70AD had been the governor of Galilee - the very province that Jesus did all his amazing stuff in. At one point he even lived in Cana, where Jesus was meant to have performed his very first miracle.

This, people, should be the man who could gives us clues to Jesus.

He became a very highly respected Roman/Jewish historian, his works are quoted endlessly by Christians and he's a very important source for historians of the period generally. His two biggest works are The Jewish War (written in the 70s) and The Antiquities of the Jews written in the late 90s. In them, Josephus tells us about every noted person in Palestine and every event in the region in the first 70 years of the Christian era.

He is the Christian apologists dream boy....EXACTLY the kind of person who could back up some of the Christian's beliefs about Jesus.

And he appears to - very briefly (amazingly briefly when you consider how massive the works of Josephus are) in a passage known as the Testemonium Flavianum (there's another single line that's used later in the text that may be genuine, but I'll come to that). It reads:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day"

Now, this is evidence indeed. Josephus manages not only to confirm the existence of Jesus, but seems to regard him as "the Messiah", suggests he is not altogether a man (something better than just a man), that he died on a cross and was resurrected three days later, his fulfilment of divine prophecy etc. Just....wow. Right? You can see why all Christians interested in the historicity of Jesus would fight tooth and nail to keep this as "evidence". But it just does not stand up to scrutiny at all.

Most serious scholars regard it as a forgery. Some feel that it's possibly only partly a forgery. I know of none at all, even the most pious Christian historians, who believe it to be entirely genuine. Even the Catholic Encyclopaedia says it's clearly been subject to repeated interpolations. At best, I would say!

The problems with it are myriad:

  • First of all, the text does not fit at all with the paragraphs both immediately before and after it. It seems to have been stuck in there right in the middle of a discourse about something else entirely. Take it out, and the text flows properly and makes sense.

  • The style of the language used is very un-Josephus & not seen anywhere else in his voluminous works

  • In some copies there is evidence of the text above and below having been squashed up and down to make room

  • Very early copies of Antiquities includes a table of contents, put together by Christians summarising the contents. This passage is not mentioned in it! BY CHRISTIANS!

  • The very briefness of the passage is extraordinary if Josephus really believed these things. He spends a lot of time talking about people far, far, far less interesting than a man "who was the Messiah"! If he believed ANY of this, we'd surely hear much more about it, wouldn't we?

  • Josephus was an orthodox Jew who never converted to Christianity. No way would he ever have declared Jesus "the Messiah" or the fulfilment of divine (Jewish) prophecy!

  • How could anyone dismiss something so amazing as a man rising from the grave three days after his death in a 127 word paragraph? Remember, Josephus is not merely telling us what Christians believed here - he is (apparently) attesting to the fact that it happened. This is so unlikely a thing, it's laughable

  • This is ALL Josephus mentions whatsoever about Christians or Christianity in his massive works. If if was genuine, he'd have to have talked about it elsewhere, but he doesn't

  • Not only did Josephus live in the right area, his parents did too. They'd have been on the scene when Jesus was up to all his amazing miracles - but Josephus appears to have heard of none of it. He talks a lot about other religions & their beliefs - but no mention of Christians or Jesus?

Christians have had to account for the lack of evidence for their beliefs from the earliest days - and apologetics began early. The earliest Christian authorities poured over all sources, most particularly Josephus (they quoted him all the time) in order to prove the historical Jesus - and this passage would have been quoted and quoted and quoted and quoted - but wasn't. Not once.

NOT ONE OF THE EARLIEST CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS MENTIONS THIS PASSAGE AT ALL

*Justin Martyr (100 - 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF.

*Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF.

*Irenaeus (120/140 - 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF.

*Clement of Alexandria (150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF.

*Origen (185 - 254), no mention of the TF and specifically states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was "the Christ."

*Hippolytus (170 - 235), saint and martyr, nothing about the TF.
The author of the ancient Syriac text, "History of Armenia," refers to Josephus but not the TF.

*Minucius Felix (d. 250), lawyer and Christian convert--no mention of the TF.

*Anatolius (230 - 270/280)--no mention of TF.

*Chrysostom (347-407), saint and Syrian prelate, not a word about the TF.

........to name but a few.

There are even Christian writers of this period complaining that Josephus never mentions Christ!!!

The most important of these is Origen, the first recognised Christian apologist, who turned himself inside out quoting this, that and the other (including passages from Josephus) to try and prove Jesus. It beggars belief that he wouldn't at least mention the TF - the single most important thing that's ever been written about Jesus outside the Bible!

The simple explanation for why none of them mentioned it is - because it didn't exist yet.

The first person who mentioned it was the prime suspect himself, Eusebius, who suddenly "found" it in the 4th century. And it's interesting that even after this, some quite eminent scholars continue to quote Josephus without mentioning the TF, and when they do are quite dismissive of it, as if they already considered it fraudulent.

Eusebius freely admitted lying for Jesus - also known as "pious fraud". This is the idea that it's perfectly OK to lie to people if it's going to have the effect of bringing them to Jesus. He said: "How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived".

For this, and lots of other reasons, Eusebius is strongly suspected of having been the perpetrator of the Josephus fraud.

Mad I don't accept that there are "two sides to every story" in issues like this. This is not subjective, this is fact. The above facts are true, and it's hard to see how anyone objective could possibly conclude from knowing this that the TF is remotely genuine. It's an obvious and rather rubbish fraud.

(Hope you're feeling better, btw :))

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EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 18:03

I'll come back to James brother of Jesus.

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MostlyLovingLurchers · 11/03/2013 18:07

I think there was some evidence of settlement that would have fitted in with Jesus' time at Nazareth, but i think it was a single dwelling? I'd appreciate a link to the archaeological evidence. I also thought that the reference may have been to a tribe rather than a place?

Holo - i'm not going to disparage the oral tradition because of course it has value. Plenty of societies transmit their ideas and stories this way, and it is how people would have remembered which plants heal, which ones kill, etc. Oral history is also useful these days of course when we can record the message and know who is speaking, why they are speaking and what their agenda is. However, we are not talking about a long oral tradition here or individuals we can identify whose integrity and purpose we can evaluate - we are talking about a small sect who were trying to get their ideas accepted over the ideas of other sects, against a tumultuous political background.

I can agree that the gospels may have been based somewhere down the line on the oral testimony of those who had first hand knowledge of Jesus and his doings, but it might equally be a deliberate embellishment of a charismatic preacher or outright fabrication of a myth to try and win converts. Also, as has already been said, it is not true that there were no historians recording what was going on at the time, just no-one recording anything about this particular individual and his followers.

HolofernesesHead · 11/03/2013 18:16

Ellie, have you read Crossan's critique of that passage from Josephus?

EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 18:20

Not quite sure where you get the idea that archaeology has found Nazareth, Mad - since no one is quite sure where it is/was!

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EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 18:24

Holo Stop being obsessed with what I have or haven't read. Either critique it yourself and show that one of the FACTS I've presented are wrong, or leave it alone.

What I've read is my concern. I don't mean that as rudely as it sounds, but I refuse to get into "Clever person x says y" so that you can come back with "Clever person z says the opposite". Who cares?

Facts are either facts or they are not Hmm. If you are unsure, Google is your friend.

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EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 18:29

I think what I've done is show that there is in fact no evidence outside of the Bible that Jesus the man existed - and that the "evidence" that is continually presented as "irrefutable" by Christians over and over again manages to be a) not evidence at all, and b) an awfully long way from being irrefutable.

The Bible is where it's at when we try to get to an historical Jesus - and I think a lot of people will be quite shocked when I get going on that.

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EllieArroway · 11/03/2013 18:32

By the way - if I was going to make the case that Jesus never existed at all, I would use Josephus as exhibit number one. As I've already said, he was native to the right area and his parents (Dad = Matthias, I think) were right there i exactly the right place when Jesus was preaching to thousands. Yet their son, the most important historian of the time, has never heard of Jesus/Christians?????

I mean - seriously?

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