Belief in God and natural disasters

[MaryBS]

How do you answer people who question why God allows things to happen?

I don't believe that God does allow things to happen. I don't believe that God has a plan or that 'he' intervenes to save some people and not others. I think the theological argument that creation is 'fallen' is way too pat. I think bad things happen because they do, and it is our duty as Christians to do as Jesus did and try to bring love and healing to those who suffer. God is there when people are brave, generous, self-sacrificing, loving. A friend has just lost her little boy and she finds the conventional stuff told/given to her by the churches of no comfort whatsoever - all she can see is that she is being told that God has taken her little boy to be with him in heaven and she'd rather not believe in such a God.

If you were not a Christian would you still care about the needs of others without feeling it is a duty. Many people profess to be and show no compassion for others, even to the point of seeing them to be unworthy of God...sorry, i digress.

I believe that our world is corrupted and so bad things happen. I also believe that God allows these things to happen but at the same time the state of our planet makes him mourn along with us. This was not the way things were meant to be, but selfishness has ultimately begun to rot not only human beings but also the planet itself. The Bible talks about the Earth having labour pains.

Bloss is usually around at this time and can put across a Christian viewpoint far more eloquently than I can. If you do a search for her name, this question might have come up on MN in the past.

This is a really difficult one and there are no hard and fast answers. I can only tell you what I have experienced and found true in the horrible times of my life.

If I were not a Christian, then yes, I would still care about the needs of others.

I've begun to understand that when bad things have happened to me, it has made me who I am today. I can have more sympathy for the plight of others if I understand a little bit of what they are going through. I'm not saying thats WHY they happened but its experience I can put to good use. A baptism of fire, as it were...

A Christian who does not care about peace and justice is no Christian at all. It's because of this that I've left the CofE - it's no longer a place where I feel happy bringing up our children. In truth, caring for others isn't just a duty, it's the only way to live and feel happy in your own skin.

It's easier to believe in a God that causes (or allows) suffering, or believe that we are 'fallen' and therefore powerless, rather than take responsibility for the world and try to bring about God's kingdom now.

Suffering is something that can be put to good use, but it doesn't come from God.

Most people would agree that a lot of the suffering in the world comes from the actions of other human beings. Humans cheat on their partners, abuse or neglect their children or elderly relatives. Families break up, employers exploit their employees, governments do not rule fairly. People commit crimes. We all hurt the ones we love on a daily basis in small ways. Burt we somehow want the freedom to hurt others ourselves but want God to intervene to stop others hurting us.

Lots of “natural disasters” are actually caused by our failure to look after the work properly. Many floods are caused by removal or vegetation, droughts caused by climate change, famines caused by war, illnesses caused by environmental factors or lifestyle.

BTW, this is not about “ blaming the victim”. I am talking in a global sense. And I know it doesn’t “explain” all suffering. I just think it’s a bit trite to say “ If God was a God of love he would stop all suffering (as long as he leaves me free to cheat on my husband & rip off my customers…)” !!!

I agree with you to some extent, Katrina, but human cruelty or greed doesn't explain why my friend's ds died of meningitis. Either God can intervene, and therefore he allowed him to die, or 'he' can't - in which case we have to accept that God isn't the all-powerful being that the churches make out. It's no wonder that many reject God when they are told in their suffering that their innocent child has died because we are 'fallen'.

And plate-techtonics? Or volcanoes, tsunamis? Where is the possible human cause or potential intervention in that?

Malaria....

I don't buy any of this 'we are fallen' stuff. I do however believe that God has a different viewpoint to us. One we cannot ever really hope to understand. When someone we love dies we are wounded beyond belief but how do we know that the person who died isn't better off/happier or whatever. It may not make us happy to lose them or to believe they could possibly be better off but we can't see the whole picture.

Also who is to say that the unhappiness we deal with now does not by our efforts to bear it give us an eternity of happiness/contentment later - We just don't know.

If we believe in God we have to trust that what happens to us in this life is but an instant compared to what will happen when we join him/her. When our toddler screams in agony when you take his favourite toy off him he only understands you have taken something he loves, not the reason that you have taken it from him and there may be a good reason from your point of view - but that will take into account the bigger long-term picture.

This does not however negate the fact that we have a responsibility to try and alleviate suffering wherever we see it, without having the opportunity to do that we are unable to progress spiritually. To do this we need the suffering to exist. Not eating chocolate cake means nothing if it doesn't exist, it has to be there in order for us to feel virtuous at having resisted it.

I do not however think that this is reasoning you should use with someone who has been bereaved. It would be crass as they are in pain and just need sympathy and understanding not to have some 'theory' spouted at them. After all it is just a theory.

If someone who has been bereaved askes me this I say. I don't know why he allows things to happen, but for me the thought he exists helps me to cope with things. If it helped me to cope to believe he doesn't exist then I probably wouldn't believe in him.

One thing I would add is that the fact that someone is angry with God probably means they still believe in him even if they say they don't. How can you be angry with something you don't believe exists?

If we don't believe in God this is all of course a crock of s*t and I can understand that viewpoint too - it is just too bleak a viewpoint for me to have.

nearlythree, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend's ds. I too could not belong to a church which says tragedies like this happen because we have fallen. This is not something I believe and it isnt something my vicar believes.

I have no explanation for why God 'allows' things to happen. I do find that people tend to emphasise the humanity of Jesus while forgetting that God is a divine being and that we cannot understand everything. People think that because you're a Christian you have an 'inside track' to the way God's mind works.

lazycow - I think we were composing our answers at the same time! I'm ITA with you!

The fall of creation as an explanation for natural disaster and illness is standard CofE belief. I've heard it from liberals and evangelicals, and it's in the bereavemnet booklet issued by the Anglican church that was given to my friend. Mary, I expect when you study you will be taught this line - I was. Many (most?) priests may not believe it but it is what appears in mainstream church literature, very often at a time when people are really at their darkest moments. It also tends to be spouted by various bishops whenever there is a disaster. No wonder so many people reject Christianity.

Personally I agree that there is little point in trying to explain everything. As soon as someone tries to say what God is like you know they are talking nonsense, because no-one knows. But that is exactly what far too many Christians do, to the extent that they wil take it upon themselves to declare who is within God's love and who is outside it. There is too much emphasis on the divine and in particular salvation, rather than the actual message of Jesus i.e. that we should all be working to bring about God's kingdom now. It's consoling ourselves that the children who die in Africa every few seconds will be safe with God in heaven that allows us to sleep at night rather than fighting with every breath we have to end that injustice. It's why my local church congratulates itself on raising a couple of grand for Christian Aid yet spends fifty times that on its buildings.

I see the need to alleviate suffering as far more than a tool for spiritual growth. It is the only way to live as a Christian. It's true that without pain we wouldn't know happiness, and that without sufferng there woudl be no need for evil. But my friend knew how lucky she was, she treasured every moment with her ds, and now her life will never be free of pain again, and nor will the rest of her family's.

We focus far too much on our own journeys, our own salvation, rather than on the God within our fellow human beings. I don't live in the surety that I will be 'saved', I live in the hope of the afterlife but I can't know for certain it exists because I'm not dead. That is why we need to work to bring about God's kingdom now, just in case we have got the whole thing horribly wrong.

Sorry, that shoudl be 'without suffering there would be no need for goodness'. It's been a long day!

Its alright, I knew what you meant :o

Its interesting, I've just revisited the "Faith Confirmed" book that we are using to prepare the candidates for Confirmation. In the section on suffering, at no stage does it mention the fall of creation, not even in passing, not once.

Rather, it refers to that a lot of it can be traced to the fact that people have rebelled against God's wishes (for example thoughtlessness towards the environment). It finishes with "Not all suffering is due to human sin". It then goes on to discuss whether it would help if God intervened every time someone was suffering.

Obviously I'm only quoting limited highlights of the chapter, it does go into more detail.

Dunno. I don't believe in God, so I tend to think things just happen.

Is there anyone on this thread who is seriously grieving and is asking for that reason? Or is this all just material for debate for now (even if strongly felt)?

I raised the question originally, and no I'm not grieving. I wasn't even looking for a debate, although its turned into a bit of one. I just wondered what people thought, as it seems to be a common question once someone finds out you're a Christian.

I hope no-one IS hurt by the comments on this thread....

I'm still grieving for my friend's ds, but held the views I do before he died, so wouldn't be hurt/offended.

We lost a child last year so i am still grieving. We have found our faith to be a great comfort. We also received a great deal of practical, emotional and spiritual support from others, both Christians and non - believers

Kristina,

I don't know what to say... I'm glad you have support and comfort. {hug}

Kristina, I am so, so sorry. This is the hardest thing and I know that there is nothing I can say. I hold you and your family up to God's love.

By the way, Kristina, I hope my earlier comments haven't hurt you. I wish I could do something to help take your pain away.

The reason I asked why the question was put is because I think if someone is in grief and pain, a serious theological debate is unlikely to be helpful or appropriate. I quite enjoy them when they happen, but I'm especially careful about starting them on topics like this, because it can be hurtful if it gets academic while someone is just in pain.

Kristina, I'm glad to hear your faith has been a source of strength. Praise God! May this continue for you...

I see your point, and I agree that people should be considerate of others when they are posting, but I don't see that as a reason for not discussing it at all, otherwise no-one would ever discuss anything.

I have been through many painful moments in my life, including a serious sexual assault, but I would never deny anyone's right to discuss the topic, or even the reasons for why sexual assaults happen (and yes I have heard the 'she asked for it' debate!).

I posted it because I wanted to learn, and so far, no-one has posted to say they were offended, which is good, because that wasn't my intention.

So, are we OK now, or should I stop posting questions in case they might offend? :)