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Philosophy/religion

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hideous hymns, vocal vicars and theatrical thuribles. Religious Chat Thread Number 6!

999 replies

nickelbabe · 17/02/2013 19:24

Welcome to the Religion Chat thread.
We're mostly Christians, but all are welcome.
a lovely soace to talk about church life, spiritual journeys and stuff in general.
It's not about debate, it's about chat.
Come oldies and newbies!

this is the previous thread

OP posts:
nickelbabe · 14/08/2013 11:05

sorry, other two, I read Jayne's first and had to comment!

I thought you all followed what I say about NV and about the church? Confused

There is absolutely no indication or intention that NV doesn't want children in the church! I think none of you understands the dynamic of the church!
It's the CWs that raised the issue of DD making the congregation not concentrate on the sermon - believe me, the congregation is full of people who have absolutely no attention span , and DD does distract them.
I hate going into churches where children just run riot and noone seems to notice. That's a world of difference from the entire congregation getting distracted by a toddler.
The point is that the toddler doesn't know yet how to behave in church - she doesn't know yet how to behave anywhere!
I expect in any church where children are that there is a fair bit of noise, and a fair bit of play. And yes, I think they shouldn't have to sit through an entire service, where it's required to concentrate, but rather get a chance to receive religious instruction somewhere designed for them.
No, I don't think that children of any age should sit all the way through the service - I didn't when I was a child, and I loved church - we went to Sunday School before the service, and joined in at the hymn before communion. It meant that we got the best bits of the service and it wasn't boring at all.

It's not having children in church that's the issue - it's the fact that the current congregation can't bloody keep their minds on the service!
I would feel sorry for anyone coming in with children, finding out very quickly that everyone was watching their children and judging them (which isn't intended- they all love children coming in, but any parent who is unsure of a new place would feel they were being disruptive)
NV works very hard to ensure that families feel welcome in the church, and makes it very clear that the children have options if they don't want to stay in the church for the whole service
No one would want him to change the service structure or style, because we like it traditional - ask TUO if she would expect the cathedral to suddenly become HC because there were children there! - No - she'd expect the families to take part in the service or take advantage of any child provisions that are given.

It's not about NOISE it's about the bloody congregation not being able to ignore the bloody child!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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nickelbabe · 14/08/2013 11:16

And I would also like to point out (god, you lot have annoyed me in this today!!!)
that I am in the CHOIR.
I can't spend the whole service running after the child - that was one reason why CWs offered to take her - because it meant that I could concentrate on singing.
Have you ever been in a church service where one of the very small choir is singing like she's being strangled because a whining whinging toddler is griping every two seconds to be picked up? Have you ever tried to sing nicely and chorally when you're holding a 20lb child?
Have you ever tried to sing nicely and chorally when you're being smacked in the face by a child, or when said child is grunting and whining because they've just decided that water and lunch box aren't enough anymore and what they'd prefer is your boob? (cue child trying to undress you in the middle of the anthem!)

It's not about trying to keep the child under control while the service is in progress - it's about trying to ensure that the "staff" are professional and that they (mainly other choristers [sigh] ) aren't distracted so they can also be professional.
and it's about keeping the child occupied while I can't occupy her.

Most people who come to church aren't in the choir, or aren't members of the staff, so they don't have to worry about anything except their own children and their own enjoyment of the service.

And I refuse to allow Choral and Church traditions to be killed out in the name of "family friendly" - I believe that there is plenty of room for family friendly and traditional - one doesn't have to cancel the other out.

This church has had choral traditions for centuries, and they have always had huge numbers of families (I've got pictures of our choir as late as the turn of this century where there are more than 30 members, at least 1/3 or which are children)

It's about getting people to embrace tradition again, and getting them to come into a traditional church.
The issues facing churches today is not that they're not playful enough, or that they're not exciting enough, it's that my generation was the first generation largely not to go to church as children, which means we now have a generation of parents who have never been to church!
It has always been the case that children came to church because they came with their parents, and in turn ,they became parents who brought their children to church.
In the 60s and 70s, that started not to be the case. Parents started to say "I don't have to go, os I'm not going", and on it went - they didn't take their children to church, so the children didn't go.
and now today's parents are those children that weren't taken to church, so they don't know what it's like to go church - it's not a habit for most people, so of course they won't take their own children - it most likely doesn't even register that they can!

It's not to do with style of church, it's to do with habit and parenting.

OP posts:
nickelbabe · 14/08/2013 11:17

cloutie - "Any chance that when his baby is a little older that you and NVW could take it in turns to look after the littlies?"

unfortunately, that means that either we have no soprano or we have no curate...
(with as few choristers as we have, one soprano down is one soprano too few)

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cloutiedumpling · 14/08/2013 12:07

Maybe it is just a case of hanging in there until there are a few more children. I agree that it can be difficult when a congregation isn't used to kids. I used to get a bit of tutting with DS1 as there hadn't been many kids in church for a couple of years before he was born. Now that I'm onto DC3 and there are other little kids in the church too people barely bat an eyelid when one of them makes some noise.

nickelbabe · 14/08/2013 13:26

exactly, thank you :)

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nickelbabe · 14/08/2013 13:28

it's so completely the opposite of tutting Grin

they just all love her and dote on her so much that they coo over her and concentrate on her instead of NV.
(he's encouraged it in the past, always makes comments that include her etc)
it would be easier if the congregation ignored her presence, and let me and DH do the parenting!

OP posts:
madhairday · 14/08/2013 14:28
Blush

Ok. I think I got the wrong end of the stick. Obviously I know the history and know what hurt you have been through with last vicar etc, and know NV is being great :) I just thought you were cross about the childcare issue, and seemed cross about them saying she distracted them, so was trying to be supportive in that, having been there myself Grin - in our curacy church, ours were the only children at first, and we had a lot of tutting etc, so I am fairly touchy about the issue Grin

I do agree about the generations thing, and about people not being in the habit any longer. I also agree that there is a place for traditional just as there is for more modern. I think it's a strength of the CofE that there is such breadth and something for different tastes in worship styles. I'm very glad about that. I am however worried about the future of many churches with elderly congregations which are literally dying out. it makes me very sad, and I wonder what the answer is. Churches need to be reaching out to their communities (that in no way means imposing certain styles on places but simply reaching out in love and witness) and where that is happening there seems to be growth. It seems to me you are doing that through schools work, trying to grow the choir etc, and there is certainly scope in choral stuf at the moment with choirs becoming more popular as a community thing. You never know where it will lead.

But yes, hang in there, and it's lovely that they dote on her so much!

cloutiedumpling · 14/08/2013 15:58

I'm pretty touchy about it too!

Jaynebxl · 14/08/2013 23:22

Yikes. Well I'm sorry for upsetting you. I clearly got the wrong end of the stick. I've never been in a church with a choir so clearly don't get it. And as you pointed out I've not been in this thread from the beginning and had no idea of the history. I will bow out and leave it to people who do. Sorry again.

cloutiedumpling · 15/08/2013 11:50

Jayne - please don't go. It's sometimes hard to pick up the backstory when there is a long thread. MHD, you and I all misunderstood the situation.

madhairday · 15/08/2013 14:24

Jayne, please don't leave, it's lovely having you with us here, love that this thread is full of different people with different tastes and experiences. Please stay

Nickel hope you are OK.

nickelbabe · 15/08/2013 14:39

Jayne - You didn't upset me - it was part of a rant I had because all of you jumped onto me about the NV not caring about children in the church.

I use this thread as a way of verbalising what's happening in my church life, so this is just the latest, that's all.

I wrote such a long post because you didn't know the backstory and I wanted to fill you in as much as possible - the problem was the more I typed the more annoyed I got at all of you interpreting the latest situation as my church not being welcoming to children.

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Jaynebxl · 15/08/2013 14:40

Ah sorry... wasn't flouncing... just meant I'd stay out of the topic. Thanks for the encouragement to stay though. No getting rid of me that easily :-)

nickelbabe · 15/08/2013 14:41

and of course you shouldn't bow out of the thread!

I'm not cross with anybody!

I was just trying to explain that it's really not as simple as the child being looked after during the service - with such a small congregation, it's impossible for there to be anyone spare to look after her, especially her own parents!

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nickelbabe · 15/08/2013 14:41

thank you :)
x-posts there

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nickelbabe · 15/08/2013 14:42

mhd "I just thought you were cross about the childcare issue, and seemed cross about them saying she distracted them"
no, I'm cross at the silly people in the church who can't stop being distracted by her! Grin

OP posts:
madhairday · 15/08/2013 14:51

:) Glad we're all OK then.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

Dutchoma · 15/08/2013 16:53

...the sun is shining...

niminypiminy · 16/08/2013 20:22

... And I am back home from holiday! And now just time to wash everything and pack to go away again to my first residential week.

(Unique, the book was waiting for me when I got home. Thanks Smile Smile. Apparently we are going to get another book list during the week...

niminypiminy · 17/08/2013 10:17

Hope you all have a lovely time!

cloutiedumpling · 17/08/2013 10:49

Have fun at the meet up.

nickelbabe · 17/08/2013 12:15

oh, that's a relief nimininininiinininininny
:)

yes, everyone have fun at the meetup!
only say nice things about me Wink

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Dutchoma · 17/08/2013 17:11

BES and Mome came with two children each. It went really well, the children played nicely and a good time was had by all (7 of us). We missed everybody else.

niminypiminy · 18/08/2013 07:46

I'm really glad that you had a good time, and hopefully we can do another meet some time that more of us can get to.

I'm just off to vicar-summer-school for a week: nervous, but excited. See you all when I get back!

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 18/08/2013 09:19

Oh hope you have a good time nimmypiminy

I've got a full day today and all I want to do is crawl back under the duvet which is not good but will be fine when I've got another couple of coffees into the system. Thank you Lord for your precious gift of caffine!

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