insulting religions

[IneedAgoldenNickname]

Hi, I've never posted on this topic before, I tend to hang out in aibu, but don't want to start a bun fight!

So, I am a liberal Christian. I firmly believe that everyone had to right to believe (or not) whatever they want, provided that belief doesn't hurt anyone else.

Earlier today I posted a lighthearted status on Facebook, which had led to me being called mindless, stupid, stuck up, thinking I'm better than everyone else. I've been told God is a c**t (sorry I hate that word so much I won't type it) and that the Bible is only God for loo roll!

I'm just really angry that people think its ok to insult me/my religion like that, when I haven't once preached or insulted others.

Obviously the easy solution would be to delete them off of Facebook, but they are people I get on with other wise.

Don't really know the point of my post, just hoping id feel better writing it down.

Well 3 kings I'm sure you are very familiar with Matthew 10:11-15.
Glad you're enjoying yourself on this thread.

Stupidly, I managed to have dumped the Greek Interlinear down the bottom of the pile at the very back. I had to hunt for it.

Transliterating: And again I tell you, easier it is a camel through [the] eye of a needle to enter than a rich man into the kingdom of God. And hearing the disciples were astounded exceedingly saying:'Who then can be saved?' And looking upon ... Jesus said to them: With men this impossible is, but with God all things [are] possible.

Changing camel into old rope doesn't change the sense of the passage one whit, nor, I suggest, does it negate my original point that Jesus apparently used 'jokes' to deliver his messages. Thanks, though for pointing out that the story of that particular gate in Jerusalem appears to have been invented after the fact, at least according to current scholarship.

Next point please?

With so many avid Bible scholars on board, we should soon have an agreed, final MN text and interpretation for what was actually written and what it means.

No point in reinventing the wheel

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1499544-to-absolutely-not-know-what-i-believe-in?reverse=1

www.bethinking.org/science-christianity/introductory/isnt-science-more-rational-than-faith.htm

It's all been done before - with much the same players by the looks of things .....

I think you should forgive them and move on with your life. They are not worth your emotional stress. I'm sorry you had to go through that. It will only make you stronger.

Avuncular I was going to give you a nice, long explanation about why I'm an atheist, but then I saw you post your 21 Christians Who are Scientists link (or whatever it was) and thought - what's the point? It would probably sail completely over your head.

Want to know why I'm an atheist? Same reason you are to the 10,000 other gods that you don't believe in. I don't believe in Yahweh for exactly the same reason you don't believe in Zeus. That's it.

And next time you go on a rant (which is fine), would you mind using paragraphs please. That was hard to read.

I'm not quite sure why you had to list all the good things you've done - since, ahem, you are not god, are you?

Are you saying that without your belief in god you wouldn't do any of that stuff? Doesn't say much for you, does it? That your only motivation for behaving like a decent human being is the hope of a pat on the head in the afterlife?

I behave decently because it's the right thing to do. I won't get a reward after I'm dead because I will no longer exist. I am comfortable with that.

Well, no actually Ellie I'm still interested and listening; the last time I talked to a real atheist 'face to face' was probably at Uni (shortly after the age of dinosaurs). The best I've seen since is probably the orchestrated exchange of views in New Statesman last year, and such things are always 'angled' and edited so you never get a true picture. Please don't prejudge what you think I might think. I just want to know and understand - in the true spirit of science. And I have no plans to jump down anyone's throat afterwards.

(Though I suppose someone else might.)

Sorry about the paragraphs and thank you for persevering - purpose of rant was to address the question what is God doing about suffering; should Christians not be rushing out and sorting everything Pronto instead of messing about with piles of books? I just thought you'd like to know that my diary was already pretty full - and anyway I don't have the qualifications or training to tackle a cure for children's cancer single handedly, especially at my time of life.

And - so far as I can tell having examined my conscience - my motivation for the course my life has taken is not what may await after I die, but what Jesus has, IMU already done for me.

I have no more certainty about what will happen after I die than I suppose you have. But I do have a hope. I don't know whether you noticed, but my first overseas aid trip was done from an atheist/agnostic position - it just seemed a good and worthwhile thing to do.

And I'm still puzzling over why God should have taken such a lovely young lad as Douglas Hall from this world so early in his life. So tragically.

So please - go on. IMO my life will be the poorer if you don't. Maybe I am deluded and if there's a better way I'd like to know about it. Nicely.

Maybe other lurkers would also like to know.

This thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent and I'm more than a little bit lost, but I just wanted to go back to Ineedagoldennickname, who commented on my comment (admittedly days ago now!)...

"Mrskbpw I agree that religion should be questioned. But laughed at? I disagree. I no more chose to be a Christian than my friend choose to have ginger hair, or my hairdresser chose to be a homosexual. I couldn't stop believing in God in much the same way I couldn't cut my own foot off for no reason. I'm sure people will disagree with that, but that's how faith is for me."

Firstly, you did choose to be Christian. Of course you chose to be Christian. You weren't born a Christian. It's not in your DNA. If you'd been born somewhere with no Christians, no access to church or the Bible or way of learning about Christianity, you wouldn't be Christian. Your hairdresser would have been gay whether s/he had been born in Britain or Pakistan or China or wherever. You wouldn't have been Christian. It's a choice you've made.

And secondly, yes laugh at it. Laugh at everything. It's good to laugh at things, though I don't mean in a malicious way. But lots of things about religion are funny and we shouldn't be afraid to point them out. When did it all get so po-faced and worthy?

@mrskbpw this thread is just going round and round in circles. I agree with the po-faced worthyness. It's so dull. However, I see it on both sides tbh. Atheists being humourless and Christians doing a lot of po-face offense taking.

Yawn.

Ask me questions, Avuncular, it's the easiest way.

And I still don't see why your actions have anything to do with what god is or isn't doing. You're clearly suggesting that god expects Christians to do his "work" for him - what about the hideous things that Christians have no idea have taken place so can't do anything about? A lot of child abuse is not known about until years after the event, for example.

Interesting, ethelb that your contribution to this oh, so dull and humourless discussion is to show up with some empty attempt at criticism (usually at me) then run off and refuse to elaborate when you're called on it. I may be "humourless", but I make sense.

50 really stupid and deluded PHd scientists (Pity there isn't yet a Kindle version)

Most of this stuff is well over my head and beyond my declining intellectual capacity, but I simply place it on the 'evidence table' for anyone who might care to dip into it, or even study it in detail and have a really good think.

I'm off now to do something a bit more useful and practical.

Byeee!

or even study it in detail and have a really good think.....or laugh.

"Atheists being humourless"

We actually have a lot of fun laughing at your funny beliefs (in private) but stick to the facts on threads like this so we don't hurt your feelings.

HTH

Well actually one of the funniest visions I have (conceived on a previous thread) is me, needle in hand, Mighty Mouse style, trying to fight God's corner single-handedly.

I think actually he's big enough to manage without me and it's not my job in any case.

Come and get me ...... Grrrrr!

But Ellie - quoting 'Yes Minister' -
if I knew what it was I didn't know, I'd know what questions to ask ......

@ellie "empty attempt at criticism (usually at me) then run off"

wtf?

The only reason I suggested questions, Avuncular is that that's the only way I can be sure that I'm telling you what you're interested in hearing. I could write a very long dissertation (I have not mastered the art of conciseness so it probably would be long) but it could be completely irrelevant.

I am an atheist because I have no reason not to be. Atheism is, actually, the default, factory setting of us all. I would need evidence in order to change my mind - and, believe me, I would change my mind in a hot minute if any evidence was presented. But, in spite of 2000 years of solid searching for it, none has ever been found.

The "evidences" that have been presented turn out to be no such thing and it always seems to me that those Christians who feel strongly enough about their beliefs to enter into debate with me are basing their faith on misunderstandings of science and fairly glaring logical fallacies.

And finally - "faith". I reject faith out of hand. I think it's a made up concept that allows religious people to sidestep the fact that their beliefs are completely without foundation. There is literally no other area in our lives where we would, or even could, use "faith" to make rational judgements. Ordinarily, we use reason, common sense, logic and observation to decide whether something is worthy of belief. Except when it comes to god - belief in him is exempt from all the normal rules.

Well, it shouldn't be. And no one has ever offered even the vaguestly sensible reason as to why that should be.

That should get you started

My spell check says there's no such word as "vaguestly". Well, PAH! to my spell check. I know what I mean

@cotedazur how do you know I have funny beliefs? Are you telepathic?

I would change my mind in a hot minute if any evidence was presented

Gulp ! Do you really, really mean that?^ Even if God really is listening in?

Would you really be prepared to change and put your life totally in his hands and be guided by him if he presented such evidence to you?

Or would you do what Pharaoh is said to have done after each of the ten plagues, and go back to your existing ways?

It's a very exposed place to be, but if you're that sincere about it .......

Er....yes, I mean that.

Believe it or not, Avuncular, I am interested in knowing what happens to be true, regardless of how I personally feel about it. Why does that make you gulp? How peculiar.

With evidence, yes, I'd believe. Would I worship? Not if it's Yahweh - he sounds like a murderous, homophobic, racist, blood-thirsty nutcase if the Bible is anything to go by. So worship? Probably not. But if it's true then it's true.

You think you have evidence, don't you? Present your case :)

I'm often asked what I'd accept as "evidence" of god. I answer in different ways depending on my mood!

Sometimes I turn the question back on Christians and ask what they'd accept as evidence of a god they didn't believe in, e.g. Wodin. Sometimes I say I won't really know unless I see it.

Sometimes I say that I'd need to see something like a broken arm, X-Rayed before and after a faith-healing service and proven to be mended. But even that, you know... it would just be one example, set against all the other times it didn't work. It comes back to the weight of evidence, as in the Nessie/ climate change examples above.

I did actually go to a "healing" ceremony once and it was very interesting. It was good as a piece of theatre, but nothing more. My Christian friends looked disappointed - and some even looked shocked! - when I told them I had seen no phenomena that could not be explained. (Even a chap who "threw his crutches away". I knew this guy from years back, when he was a volunteer in a service I used to work for, and I know he has good days and bad days with his MS - sometimes he can stand up unaided, some days he needs crutches, others he needs a wheelchair.)

Yes, I'd be interested in seeing some 'evidence' as well. But I'm not going to hold my breath. Because there isn't going to be any, just some more guff about 'knowing' that your imaginary friend is really there.

Dad I think it was PZ Meyers who wondered, not that long ago, whether there was any evidence that would convince us atheists. If we saw the stars spell out I AM YAHWEH - WORSHIP ME, then we'd have to at least ask ourselves if it definitely wasn't mega-advanced aliens playing tricks on us.

But, rest assured Avuncular - we will look carefully at any evidence you present us with and explain exactly why we can't accept it - if, indeed, we don't. Promise.

Avuncular -

Presumably if he does exist and is all seeing, all knowing, all powerful etc...( as well as prone to moving books around occaisionally) then our lives are already in his hands already. Why all the emphasis on belief?

It seems much more like the demand of a human power structure to believe in a particular brand of unprovability and put some aspect of your life in the hands of people who claim to have privileged knowledge of the unknowable.

Avun you ask Ellie if she would really be prepared to change and put her life totally in his hands and be guided by him. Having known plenty of Christians (many different denoms) and non Christians over the years I don't actually see much of a difference in them. They both struggle with the same ups and downs. Both generally care for those around them and desire to make the world a better place. From what I can see, if I became a Christian again my life would pretty much carry on as it does. Paying bills, working, loving my family, helping my community where I can.

I just don't see any thing to suggest that there is this group of people that have a 24/7 hotline to the most intelligent being in existence. Surely there should be a clear demonstrable difference when you consider that us muggles have to trudge along without the benefit of this mega wisdom on tap?

Hello :)

I realise I've jumped into this thread very late, but as many of you know I'm generally a regular on these types. I'm joining in now not because I have something startling to say, but I wanted to come and discuss things and give my views.

The reason I haven't been particularly prolific of late is that before Christmas I went down with very serious double pneumonia. I remember very little about the first week but do remember screaming at God. I asked why, why he let me go through this agony. I nearly died, actually, and it puts different perspectives on things.

Part of me had had enough. Enough of having faith and still suffering with lung disease and seeing the amount of suffering in the world. I told myself I should jack it all in, this faith lark. After all, as hih accurately observes, it doesn't make me a better person.

But you know, I couldn't, because God's love slammed into me again and again through this time, and I couldn't deny it. This wasn't the love of a sadistic, evil, selfish god, the one some of you equate with the Christian God (especially the God of the OT, and I can see that) but of a God intimately involved, who loves so much and is in it with me, right in the agony and the breathlessness. When I was on high o2 and still couldn't suck air in, there was God. Now this is a pretty damn useless answer to why God allows it, but there it is. I believe God does something about suffering and that God is in it with us.

Now all this evidence lark. I've recounted a few things on these threads about healings, for myself, for friends, for people I've read about. Of evidence I've seen. But I suspect it still wouldn't be enough, and more importantly, me recounting again the before and after scan pics of a baby with and then without a heart condition would not prove the God of love I believe in. It would only lead to questions of why - why that baby but not another? Why my friend's cancer but not others? etc. These are reasonable and valid questions.

I don't have answers. I'm not going to annoy the hell out of you and say 'you just gotta have faith'. It isn't that simple. I think the healings I have seen have been glimpses, glimpses of God's work, of how it should be, of the world restored to rights. Almost glitches in time if you like. The now and the not yet, there's a paradox to live with.

I'm not going to come up with glib and patronising answers to Why You Should Believe. I'll leave that to God. I can only recount experience, and recent experience of a traumatic event that has shaken me to the core but ultimately left me more convinced than ever of God's love. And less than ever worried about what people think, to be honest. Life needs to be grabbed with both hands. I am lying here, recovering for now, knowing it will come again. Knowing that next time that may be it. So what is it all about for someone like me?