insulting religions

[IneedAgoldenNickname]

Hi, I've never posted on this topic before, I tend to hang out in aibu, but don't want to start a bun fight!

So, I am a liberal Christian. I firmly believe that everyone had to right to believe (or not) whatever they want, provided that belief doesn't hurt anyone else.

Earlier today I posted a lighthearted status on Facebook, which had led to me being called mindless, stupid, stuck up, thinking I'm better than everyone else. I've been told God is a c**t (sorry I hate that word so much I won't type it) and that the Bible is only God for loo roll!

I'm just really angry that people think its ok to insult me/my religion like that, when I haven't once preached or insulted others.

Obviously the easy solution would be to delete them off of Facebook, but they are people I get on with other wise.

Don't really know the point of my post, just hoping id feel better writing it down.

Hi DadOnIce.
I did talk to another man as it happens, a few months ago about people looking for answers through science.
I told him that God cannot be found in the room marked science.

Faith is believing something that cannot be proven.
I am delighted your friends are doing that.

bible.cc/romans/10-9.htm
Couldnt remember the exact words so have linked it.
That is it. Sounds simple but it isnt.

As to your mother, and without wishing to get personal about your mother, yes, there are some Chrisitians who do seem to go to church because that is the routine they have always done.
But I have talked to some of them I know like that, and you may be surprised to learn just how deep their faith actually is.
Your mum may indeed have a deep faith.

@elliearrowhead you are on another thread sayign you suggested your son studies philosophy for a-level. You do realise that is part of the study of theology?

"Special pleading" is asking for one thing to be considered differently from others without any actual evidence that it should be. Like saying that Manchester United are the world's best football team, or Ireland are the world's best Eurovision singers, and everyone should just accept that. (An imperfect example, as even those who hate Manchester United or Ireland would have to accede to the physical statistical reality of the number of titles they have won on paper.)

And the problem with saying "god cannot be found in the room labelled science", while it may sound very clever and witty, is that it isn't terribly helpful. It's not that I'm looking for answers "through" science exactly. That would seem to imply that "science" is this Thing apart from the rest of life with its own special rules, like "football" or "chess".

We're still left with the problem that you believe in all of this if you, um, well, if you just do. And it doesn't address my basic frustration. (Obviously atheists' lot would be much simpler if all religious people were basically just a bit dim and credulous, with a hefty dose of fearful, as was the case in medieval times. These things are harder to explain in a post-Enlightenment age.)

I have never been called witty before. I dont think I could be witty even if I tried!

I am not sure that Christians are born Christian as such. It has to be learned. And actually much time and effort goes into it unseen.
Your friends will not just have rolled up to you one day and announced they were a Christian. Many years of thought will probably have gone into it.

I told him that God cannot be found in the room marked science.

I'd have said that 'the room marked science' contains everything that actually exists. So I'd agree with you - you won't find God there.

DadonIce, you seem to imply that I think in right and all other religions are wring. That is very far from what I said.

As for people in the mediaeval period being 'dim and credulous' - words fail me. Except for a few, such as Chaucer and Aquinas and Anselm. If you dismiss an entire 500-odd years' worth of people (how many would that be?) as 'dim and credulous' with absolutely no evidence for this argument, how can I trust you to tell the truth about the way the world is?

Grimma

My choice of words was maybe a little too provocative. But there is an awful lot of evidence for the vast majority of the common folk believing in such things as the literal existence of heaven and hell, plagues being sent by God, etc., etc. I'm not talking about scholars versed in Latin - we're talking a society with very low literacy rates (between 5% and 20%, depending on where you lived) before the introduction of Arabic numerals and "abacus school". The main educator was the parish priest, who would have schooled the populace in the Seven Deadly Sins and a fear of God.

To put my question another way: do we not agree that the gods of past civilisations (some of whose people were educated and cultured) are now seen as mythical? Thor, Ra, Zeus... You won't find many people who argue for their actual existence in this day and age. So would it not be sensible to conclude that the Judeo-Christian god - when viewed from the perspective of a future historian - will be deemed equally mythical? Is there any reasonable argument to make for this not being the case, given that it's happened with all other deities in human history?...

And I can't really top Grimma's answer to the "room marked science" question. It illustrates perfectly the point that "science" is not a Thing apart from life, but the examination of everything. It's a catch-all name given to a huge range of disciplines - so that, in fact, when people say "science does this" or "science can or can't do this or that", they will usually be only at most partly right.

@elliearrowhead you are on another thread sayign you suggested your son studies philosophy for a-level. You do realise that is part of the study of theology?

No. It's studied alongside theology - as is History of Religion etc. Theology is "the study of the nature of god". There is not actually much to study on this subject, so an overall degree has to cover other things too.

Special Pleading seen in action:

Theist: Everything that exists had a cause. The universe exists, therefore had a cause. We call that cause God, therefore god exists.

Me: Then what caused God?

Theist: God doesn't need a cause. He's always existed.

Me: But according to your logic, God can't exist. Because everything that exists had a cause - but not god. So either god doesn't exist or he had a cause, according to your own argument.

Theist: But god is timeless & not part of the universe so doesn't need a cause.

Me: But by exempting god from your own rules you are violating your premise of "everything that exists has a cause" because, clearly, NOT everything needs a cause. God doesn't. And if not everything needs a cause, why does the universe?

Theist: Why do you hate God so much?

That's special pleading. It's violating the logic you are trying to use to prove the existence of god by granting him exemption for no good reason. It's a logical fallacy.

(And sorry - the last line is tongue in cheek, but I do often end up there).

Holo A bit late, I know, but I think the American's have the right idea in theory if not in practice. It's fine to acknowledge the faith of pupils and to give them opportunities to meet for prayer groups, bible studies etc - but no particular religion should play a role in formal school life. So anything that's compulsory for children to attend should not have a religious flavour. RS as a subject is an important one though and deserves to be on the timetable. That's my opinion.

"I'd have said that 'the room marked science' contains everything that actually exists. So I'd agree with you - you won't find God there. "

Hmmm, do you mean actually exists, in what sense? I'd suggest that the nature of existence is highly contentious. IF you mean by that it's a physics lab in a school, then possibly so. Outside of that the reflection on 'existence' is much more richer and variable.

I have no idea what you just said, Pan.

Do explain. How is existence "variable"?

Cote - I too sometimes struggle with stuff you post too! It's mostly remarkably narrow.

But briefly, I'd think 'existence' is based primarily on perception and experience. So in a physics lab they deal with, I guess, fairly simple experiments (phosphorous burns in oxygen for eg.) But this doesn't say anything about how people perceive and experience the world beyond those things. How we differently interpret the world, and our role in it.

And more apposite to this thread, how people develop their own souls and have a 'conversation' with it, usually in reflective silence.

Back from 2 driving lessons and still alive .... I'll never get through this thread tonight though.

Miracle no 1 : this hasn't yet turned into a 'bun fight'. Well done OP. Thank you everybody.

Ethelb my point was that I think, using irony, Cote was pointing out that you never get atheists trying to 'evangelise' on the doorstep ?

Cote it is a great sadness to me that driving in UK is very much a me first, dog eat dog activity. (There is a car insurance ad you have probably seen which makes the generally-acknowledged point that people driving cars do not in general behave in the slightly more civilised way that they adopt in, say, a supermarket queue.) Defensive Driving could I suppose be redefined as "Looking out for No 2's"

Road users are sometimes 'atheist' in the sense that they ignore the rule/ commandment/ general social principle that we should treat one another in the way that we would like others to treat us. No need to point out that 'Christians' tend to do the same thing. Maybe I'll change my nickname to NotreallyanAngelatall - probably guilty as charged, despite my best efforts!

Niminy which Skinner please?
Doesn't sound like the "conditioned reflex" one I know.

Road users are sometimes 'atheist' in the sense that they ignore the rule/ commandment/ general social principle that we should treat one another in the way that we would like others to treat us

What are the experiences you've had with atheists that would lead you to say something like that, Avuncular?

Don't worry, I'm not trying to pretend I'm offended or anything, but that's a bit like me saying, "X group of people are sometimes Christian in the sense that they ignore reason, logic and common sense and believe rubbish".

And you wouldn't like that much, would you?

Ellie I do admire how above you directed and controlled an entire dialogue with an 'adversary' to prove your own point. As if it proved anything other than your own belief in your view. It was a bit like an Eddie Izzard sketch!

Oh, and btw, ethelb if you come back: What have my son's A'Level choices got to do with anything? There's a vague implication in your apparent need to raise the issue here that it would be hypocritical of him to study something that might be aligned with religion because of how I feel about things . How odd. Yes, it just so happens he wants to be a Physicist - but I'd be just as proud & supportive of him if he were planning to go to seminary. And I mean that. He's his own person.

Ellie I do admire how above you directed and controlled an entire dialogue with an 'adversary' to prove your own point. As if it proved anything other than your own belief in your view. It was a bit like an Eddie Izzard sketch!

Smirk, sneer, whatever makes you happy. This argument is one that I have encountered almost word for word with virtually every Christian I have ever attempted to debate.

Is having a belief in my own view a bad thing? If I didn't believe it, er, it wouldn't be my own view?!

Nice but very silly try.

The imaginary theist above was trying to advance the Cosmological Argument. Google it and read though some of the discussions about it between Christians and atheists. That will prove my point dozens of times over.

I am not new to this, Pan. I suspect you are .

Oh come on Cote! You asked me to explain, which I did and now you've gone all silent! Do I have to now clean the bathroom without your pearls to cogitate on?

In your own time...

Neither smirking nor sneering. Just analysing. One doesn't have to have poured over googly stuff to detect a self-serving element in any argument.

fwiw I have nooo interest in 'defending' Christians at all.

ok - hands down the loo time.

Pan, are you a Christian?

Pan that is the very first time ever I have heard a cyclist saying good things about motorists! This goes in my "quotes book"!

Ellie - I'm just not very good at making myself clear, I fear. I included the term "general social principle" [= 'golden rule'] as an idea which I felt 'all right-thinking people' could sign up to.

IMU, an atheist believes that we are all a product of random activity in a random meaningless universe, and that therefore there is no reason why I should not do anything I like, and certainly no reason why I should keep any societal rules of any kind.

Rather than dismember that paragraph, could someone please step up to the podium and explain to me as succinctly as possible why I should abandon my Christian faith in God, and wholeheartedly embrace 'atheism'?

My faith is (personally I admit - see my earlier post which no-one has picked up on yet) evidence-based, and also gives me a 'unified theory' of Life, the Universe and Everything.

Christianity, to me, gives me a thoroughly positive approach; atheism is so far as I can see all about nots.

Maybe I'm actually thinking about 'Atheistic Humanism'? I don't know.

As usual, I'm a bit confused; but honestly and sincerely.

Can someone (preferably a thoroughly convinced atheist) please explain? I only want to listen and understand; not challenge.

I'm delighted that this hasn't turned into a bun fight, and I'm finding it really interesting. I'm going to read some of the books mentioned way up thread and try and gain a better understanding.

Regarding the debate about schools, I think state run, non denominational schools, shouldn't have to have an act of worship. Although this wouldn't work in places where faith schools are the only option.

Mrskbpw I agree that religion should be questioned. But laughed at? I disagree. I no more chose to be a Christian than my friend choose to have ginger hair, or my hairdresser chose to be a homosexual. I couldn't stop believing in God in much the same way I couldn't cut my own foot off for no reason. I'm sure people will disagree with that, but that's how faith is for me. :)