Just curious - how many muslims are on mumsnet?

[Galvanise]

Hello/Salaam,

I know mumsnet has a wide and diverse population and I tend to recognise some MN usernames as regulars. Just intrigued to know how big/small a community it may be.

Of course, I respect that there may be those who do not wish to even identify themselves for various reasons - which is fine too.

I am not asking for 'religiousness' levels or any vital stats! Nor is this a muslim-only thread or an 'no non-muslims' thread.
If you really wish to tell me that you are not a muslim, that is fine too :)

:)

[CoteDAzur]

firefly - The government is fundamentalist and they have been doing everything to pull Turkey in that direction. Opening thousands of "schools for imams", then passing a law that enabled all those brain-washed youngsters to enter universities and become everything other than imams. Forcing "elective" lessons on Arabic, Quran, Islam, life of Mohammad, etc. Turkey used to have the army as protector of the secular republic, but these religious nuts turned out to be more clever than the previous ones - they first attacked the army, with the full support of international community, under the guise of democracy vs military. It is and nobody can say where Turkey will be in another decade.

" if its possible to be Muslim and secular"

Of course it is. Islam is between a person and God, and does not necessitate religious institutions and a system of governance to support it all.

[Hanikam]

Salaam sisters,
Good to see so many of us on mumsnet and not just on "Muslim" websites.
I converted about 15yrs ago from a Jewish secular background, Dad Jewish, Mum Christian. Dh is Muslim Bengali and we have 3 children, plus a surprise BFP a few days ago faints

Luckily, DH gets on well with my family and we try to spend Christmas with my folks and Eid with his. They still haven't forgiven him for marrying a non-Bengali though! And they never let him forget it. Oh yes, never mind the fact that I am Muslim, I am not from a Bengali background, which is even more important in their eyes.

His sisters are now my sisters and we have good time, supporting each other through marriage (not all arranged), child raising and difficult times in life.
Why did I become Muslim? Well it's a long story, and I feel that imaan is something that grows with you. As our Rasuul (saw) said (paraphrasing) ours is a deep religion, so enter into it little by little.

Thank you OP, hopefully we can have more threads like this and get to know each other. Any other sisters in Suffolk?

[CoteDAzur]

Unrecognizable because they are very different. It's hard to explain. It is not the same "feeling" at all in English. It feels like the translation of a translation of a translation, where all feeling of the original has been lost.

"Mevlevi tariq as well as all other sufi orders were banned by Ataturk. what was the thinking behind that?"

He was transitioning a war-weary and deeply ignorant people from centuries-long autocracy to secular democracy, and one of the things he did was severing all potentially-powerful religious organizations. He also disbanded the Caliphate. And hung insurgents.

"they just arrested a former army chief yesterday in turkey for a coup plot back from 1997"

There are hundreds of army officers, including generals in jail right now because of this supposed "coup plot". Many have been in prison for years now, awaiting trial. The whole thing is a sham, a laughable plot. There are many hundreds of journalists also in jail for supposedly having participated in this "coup plot". Who has ever heard of hundreds of people, including journalists ffs, collaborating in preparing a coup?

This is the government's way of jailing whoever they think is a threat to their march towards full-blown religious state. It is terrible

I will come back to tell you about "derin devlet" ("deep state") later. It's a beautiful day and DD wants to go ice skating

[firefly11]

I think of a country like Iran which is supposedly ruled by religious fundamentalists but the people are secular. I've met Iranians in Asia and they eat and drink whatever they want, do whatever non-Muslims do. They apparently don't consider themselves to be Muslim as the religion is forced onto them. But then maybe that is how they are like outside of Iran. I don't know how life is inside Iran. There are many Iranian immigrants around the world so life can't be that good there.

[firefly11]

Well what I meant by "they don't consider themselves Muslim" is more like they don't consider themselves to be proper religious ones. I know many Muslims who do not practice and who even outwardly admit they don't really believe in God. But they will still do the whole Eid thing with their families, but they will drink alcohol, smoke, try drugs, sleep around, etc. The word "Muslim" to many born Muslims I know is like a cultural identity without the religious connotations.

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Salaams Hanikan nice to meet you.

[nailak]

Cote, surely you not trying to say turkey will be the place where we see the return of the khilafah I doubt it somehow! However I thought the people were in uproar coz the pms wife wore scarf or something? Personally I don't see the issue with training imams and teachingnislamic studies in schools?

Cote i don't want to argue with u on this happy thread, but I don't get it. Does Islam not require ulama? Say a woman wants Khula or something, religious institutions are required? Or at least one judge.

Is khilafah and shariah in its entirety part of Islam? Including criminal shariah? If so then how can we follow Islam entirely without an Islamic state?

Firefly, maybe the ones who are happy to live the way dictated by the state stayed? And of course those who couldn't afford to leave. Palestinians I have met think those who have permanently settled out of Palestine are the cowards. The traitors. Maybe it is pressure like that to stay ?

And coming back to fiqh, I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying it is ok to ignore commands like growing a beard, which is wajib in hanafi fiqh, or are you disagreeing with the validity of the rulings? Are you saying musical instruments are permissible, or that it is ok to not strive to follow Islam in its entirety.?

Salaam alaykum
hainkam after 15 years, do you still feel need to say you are a revert? Surely after 15 years you are just as Muslim as anyone else, as in the sense that you are not a new Muslim anymore, it is not really relevant in day to day life anymore?

[firefly11]

nailak Well I think its kind of silly to equate immigration to cowardice. Its an individual's right to decide whether they think it's worth risking their lives to continue living in a place where they can be persecuted. But that's just my opinion.

As for the terms you mentioned, what does wijab mean and all that??? Is it like religious rules? If it is then I can only speak for myself. I do not believe outward appearance like beards or not should be set in stone. This is one of the things I don't agree with in some religions which say one must dress this way or look that way. People should be free to choose. But in conduct, I believe basic principles like the Golden rule should be adhered to. I am not here to argue abour religious rules like this though. To me it's a moot point. I would never allow myself to be dictated to like that.

[firefly11]

Do you think a secular state is compatible with Islam nailak?

[nailak]

IMO it is not about being dictated to by religion, it is about the creator who is all wise, all knowing, and if who knows us better then we know ourselves, and knows what is good for us better then we know ourselves. It is more of a case of why wouldn't you listen?


And I like being identifiable as a Muslim, I like giving and receiving salaams and so on.

[nailak]

If it is secular like France no, if it is secular like uk yes, depends on the state!

Muslims always travelled to non Muslim lands, I don't see any issue with this.
The talk about khilafah is just academic, there is no islamic land. It doesn't exist. Maybe parts of Somalia and maritiana or something, I dunno.

[SA3008]

Salams all, not read the whole thread, just wanted to add myself to Muslimah MN list.
Now to find time to read actual thread....

[firefly11]

nailak ahh okay I see. UK is not secular in theory though, is it? I mean I lived in Singapore as a child and teen and over there, it is secular. No praying, no RE in schools, but no bans on personal choice to wear hijabs, crosses, etc. i.e. personal religious objects.

I understand you feel strongly that the God you pray to is the true God and most importantly, you believe the Quran to be his authentic word and that it is the only authentic source out there.

Me personally though, it's not my belief. I don't think the Quran is any truer than say, the Bhagavad Gita or the Bible. I think of them as inspired words of God. I like reading these things, I even gain some useful wisdom from them, but I don't agree fully with everything ever said.

[firefly11]

And I still find the idea of Heaven or Hell as described in Judeo Christian religions quite hard to believe in. Well I have read many fascinating accounts of near death experiences and that has made me wonder if Heaven really exists. But Hell, I don't really believe in that. Hell can be on Earth. Like the way the poor girl in Delhi was raped on a bus. To me that is Hell. Maybe Hell is on Earth.

I had a brief encounter with a Christian woman at an Evangelist church once. They run a playgroup which my kids attended sometimes. She asked me what was my faith and all that. At the time I was atheist and told her so, and she grilled me about why I believe in it and such and such. I can't remember most of the conversation now but I do remember asking her what does she think of people who believe in other religions then? And she said she just thinks they are "mistaken" or misguided. Well clearly I am "misguided"

[nailak]

firefly to say there is hell on earth, does this mean when people suffer it is a punishment?

crescent I hardly go to masjid, but try and organise circles because I think it is important to have friends and support!

[CoteDAzur]

"many practising muslim women who were turned out of their work places... many others who remained in turkey had to stay at home and lose out on using their skills or education because they were told -choose faith or work but you cannot mix both"

Err... someone's been feeding you stories. Women were not "banned" from working with headscarves - that's ludicrous.

Until these hypocritical religious nuts took office, Turkey was a truly secular state, meaning No Religion in state affairs - state-owned companies and education (which at the time was all state-owned). This included outward signs like headscarves and crosses, where applicable.

Your friends could have very well worked in the thriving private sector, in any city of their choosing.

[CoteDAzur]

"UK is not secular in theory though, is it? "

UK isn't secular at all and neither does it claim to be. Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that the Church of England is represented in Parliament with over 20 bishops, collective (Christian) worship is compulsory in schools, and the monarchy is Christian.

[firefly11]

nailak I don't know if it can be called punishment. I don't subscribe to the idea of a vengeful God. I think I may have said upthread somewhere that I find it really difficult to think of God as a being that metes out punishment. I quite like the Gnostic Christian interpretation of things... that the material and mind are flawed because the creator or Demiurge that made it is a separate entity from the ultimate God.. but then again I have my own interpretations of things. Still working it out. I am more into mystical ancient stuff but yeah I also kind of wonder about the reincarnation theory as well as Greek mythology. I guess right now I am sort of closer to being a panentheist. Which is different from pantheism.

[firefly11]

cote Yes the collective worship requirement in UK state schools means it is not secular. Though it is up to the school itself to decide how they want to tackle the collective worship thing. When I was atheist, I frowned when my daughter came home telling me during assembly she was taught God will punish you if you were naughty. I mean, I could understand the school needed a way to keep kids in line. But instilling the the idea of a vengeful God into a 5 year old's mind?

I don't know. I guess I prefer the Singapore model of a secular state than France's version. In Singapore, you are not banned from wearing religious items or clothing. It truly is freedom to practise whatever religion you wanted as long as you don't hurt anybody or force others to comply. And in public realms, no associations with religion whatsoever. I understand France and Turkey implemented their versions of secular states after lots of bloodshed so maybe the governments felt that erasing any trace of religion in public including headscarves would be better for the country's stability. Singapore used to be part of Malaysia before the 60s when it gained independence from Malaysia. Malaysia is a secular but Islam is the sort of national religion if you like, and other faiths are not allowed to preach there. When Singapore gained independence, they essentially got rid of the state religion thing and they got rid of the ban on allowing different faiths to proselytise to the public. But in general, Muslims in Singapore prefer not to proselytise. This whole Dawah movement from the Wahhabi movement is a more current development. It certainly wasn't there when I was growing up in the late 80s to early 90s.

[CoteDAzur]

"implemented their versions of secular states after lots of bloodshed so maybe the governments felt that erasing any trace of religion in public including headscarves"

Not in public. In the state.

Public = walking down the street, in movie theatres, restaurants, work, etc.
State = only in state-owned institutions, ex: working for government.

[nailak]

yeah i guess thats what i meant, if it is secular as in no religion in state then i can accept it if it is secular as in no religion in public i dont thinjkk it is compatible with islam.