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Philosophy/religion

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Why did God need Jesus to be killed?

226 replies

Machadaynu · 01/10/2012 11:14

Not much to add to the title I suppose.

It's just never made sense to me that an omnipotent God would need to do anything he didn't want to, therefore he must have wanted to have Jesus killed.

He could have forgiven us without him being killed - or he isn't omnipotent.

He could have made a world that remained without sin, rather than letting Satan mess this one up in the first week - or he isn't omnipoitent

He could have invented another way of making a symbolic gesture that didn't involve murdering his son - maybe he could have made the earth spin backwards or something to signify a new start.

I just don't understand God thinking "well, I don't need to murder my son, but I think I will anyway because that will show people how loving I am"

So why did he claim to need to have Jesus killed?

OP posts:
CrikeyOHare · 10/10/2012 00:17

Honestly - my comment wasn't aimed at you, Amillion, just a general observation about how few Christians have read all of the Bible.

And yes - it's a bit much to read it all in one go! That's why it took me two years.

amillionyears · 10/10/2012 00:19

I think the normal time it takes to read it all is 3 years.
So well done.

springyhope · 10/10/2012 00:20

And I see you've done it again OP! ie you've abandoned this thread after 5 days. Poor thread etiquette, not so much as a bye or leave

amillionyears · 10/10/2012 00:23

I've been wondering if he is working.

nightlurker · 10/10/2012 00:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/10/2012 00:44

God didn't need Jesus to be killed.
People need needed it.

Sad as it is, the human race has not moved on from human sacrifice. From 6million Jews to JFK to the Quinn brothers, history is littered with good intentions that are only acted on when people are murdered.Sad

GranToAirMissiles · 10/10/2012 00:55

To demonstrate definitively that no good deed goes unpunished.

CrikeyOHare · 10/10/2012 01:36

Night

From a Christian website:

healtheland.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/less-than-10-of-professed-christians-have-read-the-entire-bible/

But having spoken to many, many, many Christians online over the past few years, I very much doubt many more than that have read the NT either. They are consistently surprised (and rather put out) when I point out the inconsistencies, mistakes, inaccuracies & less than moral teachings of Jesus.

Most atheists know the Bible better than most Christians. That's often why we're atheists, to be honest.

HolofernesesHead · 10/10/2012 07:21

Hi :) sorry I've not posted; the last few days have been crazy! I'll
Try and post later today.

madhairday · 10/10/2012 12:25

Really interesting discussion between Holo and Crikey about evidence for a historical Jesus. I love extending my reading on this too, but remain convinced of compelling evidence or at least enough early manuscript evidence of someone called Jesus who began the movement of Christ followers. I do realise that there is not the contemporary historical firm evidence for all that happened, but near contemporary historians did mention Christ/Christianity - as you have referred to, Crikey. And the reality is the thousands of manuscripts found, some very early on (130ad iirc) are consistent with each other enough to discount the whole editing of the bible thing. There are a few differences, mostly regarding grammatical or syntax errors as opposed to great big swathes of doctrine and gospel apologetics.

And Paul's reference in Phil 2 to the earthly Jesus is widely accepted as part of the original writing, but Crikey I do accept that you don't see Paul as historically accurate or possibly even viable.

For me though it doesn't simply come down to whether or not my faith is intellectually robust but down to the experience, not only of myself but of millions and millions throughout history, experience of a God of love, of hope who changes lives.

Interesting to bat it all around.

As for the original question from the OP, why did Jesus have to die? I think it's been pretty well answered by amis, Holo. Hope etc etc. My take on it, as well as all this, is that in dying, Jesus conquered the power of death. He showed us that death wasn't final, it was not as strong as love. The cross is a great mystery but broke the chains of death. It's so much more than a penal substitutionary idea of atonement, I think, although I don't believe that can be fully discounted. Like to keep my options open and entertain many atonement theories at once, me Grin

CrikeyOHare · 10/10/2012 13:18

Hi Madhairday

With regard to the NT gospels, we don't have a single original manuscript. The best we have is (I think) about a 3rd generation copy. So it's impossible to know what the originals said, since we have never seen them.

There are around 200,000 textual variants between all the many copies of the gospels (mostly fragments) that we have. This is more than there are words in the entire NT. Some of the variants are very small mistakes & mistranslations, others are whopping great bloopers. Quite a few of Jesus' most famous sayings don't appear in the earliest manuscripts, strongly suggesting that they are later insertions.

So, for this reason alone, the NT simply cannot be used as historical data - there's too much wrong with it.

And, regarding Paul - oh, I know he was a real person. And we have no reason to believe he was a fantasist &/or liar. But even if you take everything he says at face value, it doesn't do anything at all to demonstrate a living, earthly Jesus. If anything, it suggests the opposite. What Paul doesn't say is infinitely more significant than anything he does.

And yes, it does all come down to faith, in the end. I'm not saying that I can understand "faith" - I can't (I need evidence to believe in anything), but I try to respect the rights of people to have it & acknowledge that it's important to them. And as Amilllion has demonstrated, the lack of evidence does nothing to dent strong faith, so we should all be able to see this just as an interesting discussion.

Seriously though - why, why, why do I write such long comments? I'm starting to annoy myself. I try to be succinct, but fail miserably. Sorry everyone Blush.

madhairday · 10/10/2012 14:29

It's ok - I've really enjoyed reading your comments :)

wrt manuscripts etc, a very early copy/fragment is amazing in and of itself - to put it in perspective, manuscripts relating to eg Caesar, while written in the first century, no copies/fragments exist until the 10th century, and only a very few, compared to the thousands of fragments/copies of gospel accounts, all incredibly consistent. For example, the Bodmer Papyrus II, XIV and XV date to the 2nd century and contain full copies of 2 gospels, parts of the other 2 and many other NT books. For these to be in existence and bear such close relation to what we read today, when you take into consideration other manuscripts about other events/people of the time and their scarcity/non contemporaneous-ness (I just made up a word Grin ), it blows my mind a little bit.

HolofernesesHead · 10/10/2012 14:48

Hi again Smile

Crikey, the first 'canon' of New Testament texts was put together in 190CE; so the concept of one unified 'New Testament' didn't exist until then, so it's completely understandable that what we have from before that date are fragments of texts (as in P52) rather than one unfied text (as in Codex Sinaiticus). Yes, the original texts are lost - but enough work can be done on the papyri that we do have to assess what it is a copy of (i.e. to estimate dating of NT texts).

It's not an exact science, but it is an intelligent process of assessing textuual details against the backdrop of historic events. What we have now in the Nestle-Aland 28 Greek text reflects the various textual variants; if you ever look at the Nestle-Aland Greek NT, what you get is a lot of info on each page about which MSs witness to each verse (often half a page is text and half a page is textual apparatus) and what the variant readings are. The main text is the one deemed by the editors to bear the most weight in terms of historical and textual evidence.

Crikey, don't worry about your post lengths - posts doon't always have to be one-liner soundbites IMHO Smile

CrikeyOHare · 10/10/2012 17:29

Mad Yes, you're right regarding the manuscripts relating to Julius Caesar. The thing is though, if all we had demonstrating an historical Caesar were these fragments of copies of copies of copies of manuscripts, no historian could make a conclusive case that he existed at all. It's by looking beyond this to see what else we may have in the way of supplementary evidence that we find everything else - busts of his likeness made within his lifetime, coins with his face on, eyewitness accounts from both friends & foes, endless mentions in contemporary histories of the era, a system of government inspired by him & a calendar bearing his name. This all adds up to a pretty darn conclusive case that he did indeed exist.

But when we look beyond the similar, fragmentary "evidence" of Jesus - we find nothing. So, there's really no comparison that can be made between the two.

The problem remains, that everything we think we know about early Christianity comes from one source and one source alone......Christians. Christians who were, obviously, believers and who wanted to spread the word. Christians with an agenda, a bias, an unshakeable faith. This is why it is always imperative that, when trying to establish the facts of something historically, we must, must, must look beyond the say-so of those who might want us to believe what they are saying, for their own reasons. And when we do we find nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada., And this is a very big problem.

Hi Holo Yes - I agree with everything you've written. But what it demonstrates is the evolution of a religion. A movement that grew & changed over successive generations - with new interpretations, edits of existing manuscripts, new & important adherents (Constantine), the dismissal of whole gospels in order to bring coherence & consistency. All true & all to be expected.

But it is massively at odds with the central message of Christianity, surely? Even if we dismiss most of the miracle stories of the NT (and I know most well read Christians do, for all of the same reasons that I do) surely it is necessary to believe that God gave his only son to save us from sin & to demonstrate his love etc and, hopefully, to prevent us from going to hell (whether that's a literal or metaphorical hell).

If this is true, then it's a tremendously important message for the whole of humanity. My immortal soul & that of my grumpy, messy beloved DS rests entirely on my willingness to accept Jesus & love Yahweh. And these highly contentious, fragmentary, inconsistent, mistake-ridden bits of bronze age literature are expected to convince me? This was the best God/Jesus could manage?

Tell you what, Holo - recommend to me the one book to read that best represents your point of view, and I'll order it on Amazon today. I want to get a more well rounded view of things.; My interest is more piqued than ever now - so thank you for that Grin.

HolofernesesHead · 10/10/2012 17:37

Hi Crikey! :) Errrmmm....oh dear, I don't know what to recommend! I walked past a book in a library the other day entitled 'The Bible as Human Witnesses to the Divine' and thought 'hmmmm yes, that sounds good' but didn't actually read it, so can't recommend it. I'm just working now; I'll see if inspiration strikes!

HolofernesesHead · 10/10/2012 17:49

Crikey, shall I try and find a good book for you to read on the historical Jesus, or the formation of the Biblical canon, or both?

CrikeyOHare · 10/10/2012 18:07

Either/or, Holo, I don't mind. I have read quite a lot over the years on both subjects, so I doubt my view is going to change any. But in the interests of being open minded & being able to discuss the issue more fully, I'll read something that you recommend.

And I'm stuck for new reading material at the moment, so now is a good time :)

But PLEASE not Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands A Verdict. I read this on the recommendation of quite a few Christians that I've discussed these issues with, and my teeth are still sore with all the gritting I did!

Don't worry - get back to me in a few days if nothing comes to mind immediately.

amillionyears · 10/10/2012 18:19

Crikey,I appreciate your honesty and willingness to think about all of this.

You next to last paragraph is a vastly important one. And that is why us Chrisitians cannot rest properly.
I accept that there are some verses that have some bits missing.
I supppose the issue for me about the bible,is that once you accept it,you find parts do fit other parts,and in a way,the more you accept of it,the bigger truths you uncover.
I appreciate,that for people who currently dont believe,it can appear to be a whole load of gobbledegook.

HolofernesesHead · 10/10/2012 18:56

Okay Crikey, the book I recommend is (drum roll per-lease) 'Jesus, Paul and the Gospels' by James Dunn. Dunn is an academic scholar of NT literature and writes as a scholar rather than as an apologist, but this book is relatively easy to read. I like his work. I haven't read 'evidence that demands a verdict'. If you read Dunn, let me know what you think!

madhairday · 10/10/2012 19:03

Crikey, hope you don't mind me recommending a book too. I have heard some good things about this book The Case for Christ which was written by a journalist who was an atheist and decided to dig into the evidence for Jesus for himself. I really must read it myself before I go recommending, but people I respect have recommended it and it seems to be exactly what we are discussing, so there you go!

I'd second Dunn too, I read a fair amount of Jimmy Dunn when studying theology.

Just one thing - I'm afraid I am a thinking Christian who does believe in the reality of the miracles of Jesus. No point me believing in the resurrection but saying the water into wine/healing of the blind man etc are just a nice little metaphor, really, and personal experience has caused me to firmly believe in the truth of these miracles and sayings of Jesus.

CoteDAzur · 10/10/2012 19:20

"And these highly contentious, fragmentary, inconsistent, mistake-ridden bits of bronze age literature are expected to convince me? This was the best God/Jesus could manage?"

A simple description of DNA would convince me. Something alluding to the double-helix structure, for example. Like, "God defined each of you with the tiniest of all ladders, which he twisted and twisted, then put into even the smallest part of you".

CrikeyOHare · 10/10/2012 19:35

Sorry, Mad - hope I didn't offend you. I probably phrased that clumsily. I was really thinking of people like Rowan Williams & the Bishop of Oxford (can't remember his name) who don't necessarily seem to believe the specifics. The point is, it's perfectly possible to be a believing Christian and not actually believe anyone ever walked on water. But if that forms part of your belief system, fair enough.

OK - so have found the James Dunn for £6.98 on Amazon & ordered it. The Case For Christ I already have & I didn't find it very compelling. But it's been a while since I read it though, so I shall dig it out and maybe give it another go.

But just so we're clear - this isn't because you're swaying me with your arguments, dear ladies Grin. It's just that I'm mindful of all the times I've told Christians off for their poor research (not talking about this thread, or even MN) that I feel it's only fair to take my own advice.

Bye bye for now :)

madhairday · 10/10/2012 19:40

Ah that's interesting about the Case for Christ - I shouldn't recommend on what I've not read really Grin I might order it though just to see.

I think there's some good NT Wright stuff around as well, will have a look.

I think Rowan does believe in it all, from what he's written anyway. :)

You didn't offend me at all btw :)

CrikeyOHare · 10/10/2012 19:55

Well, I know that he described the nativity as "a legend" & that it wasn't necessary to believe in the virgin birth literally in order to be a Christian, Mad. And I'm pretty sure he tends to view lots of things as "metaphorical".

I do have a bit of a soft spot for him - it's that mad hair, I think Wink.