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Original poster

Why did God need Jesus to be killed?

226 replies

Machadaynu · 01/10/2012 11:14

Not much to add to the title I suppose.

It's just never made sense to me that an omnipotent God would need to do anything he didn't want to, therefore he must have wanted to have Jesus killed.

He could have forgiven us without him being killed - or he isn't omnipotent.

He could have made a world that remained without sin, rather than letting Satan mess this one up in the first week - or he isn't omnipoitent

He could have invented another way of making a symbolic gesture that didn't involve murdering his son - maybe he could have made the earth spin backwards or something to signify a new start.

I just don't understand God thinking "well, I don't need to murder my son, but I think I will anyway because that will show people how loving I am"

So why did he claim to need to have Jesus killed?

OP posts:
CrikeyOHare · 08/10/2012 14:05

Something else I've always thought about Jesus & the gospels etc - if Jesus the man existed, then I think it's reasonable to conclude that he was one of life's good guys. There's definitely a flavour of "love" infused throughout all four of the canonical gospels that's hard to escape. And this would have been unusual for the time, when murder & mayhem were the order of the day. It seems to me that, if Jesus had a message, it was one of peace.

We know that every now and then inspirational people can emerge & they make an enormous impact on others and the world - think Martin Luther King. If I'm going to be very generous, I could just about buy into the idea that Jesus the man was one such person. But "divine"? No chance.

HolofernesesHead · 08/10/2012 14:09

Hi Crikey :) The thing is, it was only after Jesus' death that his life took on the significance that it did. That's my point. You seem to be muddling up beliefs about Jesus with the basic question here, which is 'was there a Jewish man called Jesus who died?' After all, it was my affirmation that yes there was such a man with which you objected in the first place.

And yes, we know that Josephus had quite a Christianising make-over! :) Again, what scholars try to do is to work out what the various redactions are, from what is historically plausible.

HolofernesesHead · 08/10/2012 14:11

Well, as I've just said, whether or not Jesus is divine is a different question to the one we are currently asking! :)

CrikeyOHare · 08/10/2012 16:50

Nope. I said that there's no evidence that the man Jesus existed. Which there isn't. At no point did I say that this therefore means he did not exist. I have gone out of my way to say that, personally, I suspect there was a man who was a teacher & was put to death in roughly 33AD. This is for inferential reasons, not evidential - I've even given you examples.

HolofernesesHead · 08/10/2012 17:18

Great! In that case, we agree! :)

CrikeyOHare · 08/10/2012 17:58

Ah - so *Holo, you agree that there's no evidence that Jesus existed, and it's therefore not "incontrovertible" that he did? Although there are good, although not conclusive, reasons for supposing that he did?

:)

Marabou · 08/10/2012 18:54

I must admit that I haven't read all the thread, but just wanted to give my two cents:)...

Jesus died on the cross, because God is a righteous God and couldn't just forgive sin without due payment, which is mirrored in the Old Testament sacrifices. John 3:16 tells us that because God loved the world/people, he gave his own son to be sacrificed to make perfect atonement for our sin and to open the way to God in the same way, as he gave the Israelites the perfect antidote against the lethal snake bites in the Old Testament. They had had to lift a snake on a pole and anyone having been bitten by a snake could save himself by looking at the snake. In the New Testament, Jesus is the antidote and the perfect sacrifice, as animal blood could not cleanse us of our sin and thus a perfect human being was required...

Shallishanti · 08/10/2012 22:11

huh???
snakes???

you see, it's the 'thus' that make sense to me, but the the thread has gone a long way from the OP
(and been v interesting, thanks)

Shallishanti · 08/10/2012 22:12

er....makes NO sense, that should be

CrikeyOHare · 09/10/2012 14:31

Marabou He couldn't just say "I forgive you all" and be done with it? It's his universe, he can do anything he likes. Seems rather contrary to tell us on one hand that killing is wrong - and then devise a loophole for the sins he pre-planned in advance that we'd commit that involved, not just killing, but full scale torture as well.

These are the actions of a pyschopath, not a righteous & just God, surely?

amillionyears · 09/10/2012 14:52

God made the world perfect.
Then the devil came along and messed it up.
God has been fighting the devil ever since.

Because things went wrong,God had to try and put things right.
He will put it all perfectly right again at the end times.

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 16:22

Didn't God made the devil, too?

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 16:26

"Jesus died on the cross, because God is a righteous God and couldn't just forgive sin without due payment, which is mirrored in the Old Testament sacrifices."

That is not quite the definition of "righteous" that I remember - expecting payment for every favour.

Then again, I'm remembering Biblical figures called "righteous" like Lot, who offered his virgin daughters to an army of soldiers if only they would stop banging on his door. I can't remember if that was before or after he had an incestuous affair with them. Again, not what I understand by the word "righteous" Smile

amillionyears · 09/10/2012 16:27

Very good question.
I'm delighted you have joined us.
God made the angels.
The Devil is a fallen angel. He was good but turned bad.
After that,I dont know how things happened.
Perhaps someone else can help me answer that one.

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 16:33

I've been on this thread since it's beginning on 1 October.

Since God created the Devil, don't you think He can also squish the Devil like a bug if He so wishes?

Your "God has been fighting the Devil ever since" makes it sound like God wants to destroy the Devil but can't. Do you really believe this?

JugglingWithPossibilities · 09/10/2012 16:36

How did the devil turn bad then amillionyears ?

Sounds more like a story than something that really happened to me !

One more thing, how come everyone used to believe in hell but doesn't mention it anymore ? - Quite a major change in philosophy there I'd say !

amillionyears · 09/10/2012 16:43

He will destroy the Devil at the end times.

Juggling I agree with you.
The teaching of the bible has been substantially watered down over the years. Personally I dont think it does the general population any favours at all.
I always encourage everyone to read the bible for themselves,and make up their own minds about things.

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 17:02

Why not now? And if God isn't going to destroy the devil until Armageddon, you can't say He is fighting the devil now, can you?

So why do you think God is letting the Devil do his evil work?

JugglingWithPossibilities · 09/10/2012 17:12

Well, I always encourage people to read widely and then make up their own minds on things so I can see where you're coming from amillionyears -

though personally I think it's good that the Bible has been watered down over the years in favour of compassion and tolerance. (It's quite scary in places IIRC)

nightlurker · 09/10/2012 18:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CrikeyOHare · 09/10/2012 22:45

God made the world perfect - and the devil came along and messed things up? So, God's a failure, then? This omniscient, omnipotent, quantum mechanics creating overlord couldn't manage to get rid of something that was spoiling his "perfect" creation?

One of the following must be true, Amillion - your God is either too weak to get rid of the devil, or doesn't care too, in which case he's rather an immoral being, huh?

If I could rid the world of suffering tomorrow with a click of my fingers, I would do it. It would be the moral thing to do. Am I more moral than your God?

Oh - and I've read the Bible, btw. All the way through - took me around 2 years altogether. A bigger case for atheism is hard to imagine, quite frankly.

amillionyears · 09/10/2012 22:58

I didnt mean you about reading the bible Crikey.I assumed you must have as your knowledge is quite extensive already.

There is a whole load of stuff going on in Heaven at all times.
Including angel and Devil stuff. My knowledge of this particular stuff is reasonably poor. Partly because the teaching of this part of the bible has been watered down.

Juggling,the bible hasnt been watered down. The teaching of it has though.
Parts of the bible are very scary indeed.

CrikeyOHare · 09/10/2012 23:46

I know that comment wasn't directed at me, Amillion, just thought you'd be interested to know that I had read it.

Apparently, only 10% of Christians have read it all the way through, which always astonishes me. If you truly believed that God had either written &/or inspired a book for you, wouldn't you read it?

amillionyears · 10/10/2012 00:08

I still come across odd verses that I may well have not read before,about once a year.
In life,I like variety [except of husbands!], so it would have bored me rigid if I read it rigidly from beginning to end.

springyhope · 10/10/2012 00:11

erm OP, you seem to have abandoned your Job thread, where this is discussed in detail.