Cool Choirs, Clappy Choruses, Cringy Coffee: Religion Chat Thread No 5

[madhairday]

I thought seeing as our other thread has gone somewhere into the oblivion that is old MN pages, I would start us up again anew for a new term. This is a place for those who are Christians (and anyone who's not, we're not an exclusive little club) to chat about life, theology, church, any other stuff and of course Graham Kendrick, as nickel would not forgive me if I forgot to mention him

So all welcome, old and new, it would be fun to chat and chew over anything that comes to mind. Lurkers say hello!

Anyone got a nice juicy topic to get the ball rolling then? Or if not come say hi anyway and tell us how you are doing. :)

I've totally seen Javelin Woman too, always at New Wine esque events, free in worship for definite. roflmao

He's brilliant. Does he ever tour in the UK?

Hi all, this looks like my sort of chat

Scottish Episcopal here, DH is head altar server and I help run Sunday School

Hi RuckAndRoll it is good to see another Scot on here. I see from your profile that you live in Edinburgh. Do you go to P's and G's? Don't answer if it is too personal. My sister used to be a member there (she no longer lives in Edinburgh) and I have fond memories of going to church with her when I visited her.

I don't go to Ps&Gs no, I have been a few times with a friend though and we went a few times when church hopping when we first moved here, it's not DHs cup of tea though.

Hi Ruck, lovely to have you here :)

I feel very sad... who makes up the house of laity? :(

Yes, me too - as I've said on the thread in Chat it's yet more ammunition for atheist attackers of the church.

As far as I can see FiF and the other conservative groups have been very successful at getting people into the house of laity and as a result it is incredibly unrepresentative.

A really sad day,

I started reading the thread in Chat and had to stop, as it was making me even more depressed.

So the question is then... how to storm the House of Laity and ensure that it's filled with right-minded more liberal people before this comes back for another vote?

The only trouble is that from all I 've heard the 'I'd rather gnaw my own arm off than sit through another one of those debates' factor is very, very high indeed at GS meetings. We need rightminded more liberal people with loads of time during the week and a high tolerance for institutional procedures and politics ... don't all rush...

very sad?

I'm bloody fuming about that cock-up of a decision.

never mind the fact that it's sexual discrimination, Mary Magdelene was the first apostle! How the hell can they justify not letting women be bishops in this day and age?
The very fact that she was the first apostle shows quite clearly that Jesus thought that women were just as important as men (and probably more so) at spreading the word.

Once all the hypocrisy was shattered making women equal (in theory) on all footings, then women should have been given the chance to go to the top of the church as well.

Very well put, both here and on the Chat thread, niminy.
And your last point is the one I hear most from people I know - that Diocesan Synod would make you chew your arm off, let alone General Synod, and the number of liberal people with enough time and energy to devote themselves to the whole thing is difficult. I hope the discussion today will force some immediate reconsideration of the issue, rather than letting it go for another three years. I don't want the govt to step in, and I really don't want it to provoke debates about disestablishing the C of E. That would be, imo, disastrous in a whole new way.

Surely at some point (soon, one hopes) there has to be a decline in the numbers still opposing this issue. I know there are still folk coming through training college who are opposed to women priests etc but the number of places able to host them as curates/priests must gradually decline surely? Particularly as dioceses cut posts because of finance issues, they will be taking the opportunity to amalgamate parishes/livings which means that previously 'exclusive' churches will be incorporated into jobs/posts that are principally pro-women in practice. (Similarly those churches who refuse to pay their share on the grounds that they disagree with women priests in their diocese/church - next appointment around, they might find their parish amalgamated and no possibility of retaining their anti-women status).

Yes, really agree about the ammunition it provides for those in favour of disestablishment.

I agree too that demographically speaking change is inevitable. It would just be so nice to see the Church be doing the right thing first, and without being pushed into kicking and screaming (not literally).

And the really, really depressing thing about all is this is that what would we rather be talking about, having women bishops or living out the gospel and building the kingdom?

True.

My OH suggest that here in Durham we ought to refuse to have another bishop until the motion is passed, and that no confirmation candidate here ought to get confirmed until the same.

Really good posts on the other thread, niminy and Dandy.

I'm thoroughly depressed. I think you're right that FiF and Reform got more of their members into the house of laity than is representative.

Having read the other thread, it's only confirmed my suspicions that this will be yet another thing we in the CofE have to contend with, and will lose many good people through. As pioneer ministers here we are often fighting against the image of the church, trying to draw in those who have had nothing to do with it. This is going to make that even more difficult :(

You've shot yourself in the foot, CofE, here. WWJD indeed.

:(

Feel sorry for both Rowan and Justin in this too. :(

Yes, really vile for them. And for everyone who's been working to make it happen.

The trouble is, all the extraordinary things the church does (like sending you and RevMHD to be pioneer ministers) get lost in all this, and it just makes the church look inward-looking and reactionary.

all round -- it's a vile day weatherwise, too, we need something...

We do indeed. I've got horrendous toothache after a complicated extraction and 2 days of non stop sickness. Feeling fairly sorry for myself

You're right though - all the good stuff won't be seen, all people will think about to do with the c of e is this whole thing. :(

I was sorry to read about the result yesterday. How long will it take before there can be another debate on it?

might cheer us up a bit...

!! come on, own up, who was it ?

I just got this email:

The Diocese of Canterbury
The Right Reverend Trevor Willmott
The Old Palace, The Precincts, Canterbury, Kent CT1 1NQ
Telephone: +44 (0)1227 459382. Fax: 784985
Email: [email protected]
www.canterburydiocese.org

Dear Colleagues
The open door?
You will no doubt have heard that the General Synod of the Church of England voted yesterday against the Measure to allow women to be ordained as bishops. Although the Measure was passed in the House of Bishops (44 for, 3 against, 2 abstentions) and the House of Clergy (148 for and 45 against), the vote in the House of Laity (132 for and 74 against) narrowly missed the required 2/3 majority required in each House. In essence, another 6 votes in the House of Laity and the headlines this morning would have been very different.
Many of my fellow bishops have already expressed their deep disappointment at this decision, and many more people across the church and beyond are saddened and confused at the rejection of what seemed to so many to be a reasonable, if imperfect, way forward. Many are doubting their vocation, and even their faith, within a church whose decision making body could now appear so out of touch with both the majority of its members and the wider society it seeks to serve. My heart goes out to all those who are saddened by yesterday?s events and particularly those women whose ministry is such an important, a fundamental part of the life of the church, and who had hoped so dearly to be affirmed in their vocation.
One of the readings set for Holy Communion today, from the Revelation to John, begins?
?I looked, and there in heaven a door stood open!?
I believe that the door to women being bishops is open and cannot now be shut. The clear majority of the Church of England demands it, the people of this country expect it, and I believe that the Holy Spirit yearns for it. There will be women bishops in the Church of England and I hope and pray that the wait will not be a long one.
The vote yesterday was not a ?no? to women bishops, but it was a ?no? to the proposed Measure as it stands. The House of Bishops meets in two weeks? time and will be considering the way forward; I ask for your prayers for me and my colleagues in this work.
In the Diocese of Canterbury, women in ministry are valued and appreciated widely. As Bishop, I have consistently assured those who find the episcopal or priestly ministry of women difficult, that there will be a place for them, which respects their convictions.
My door is open to those who wish to talk to me about this. My thoughts and prayers are with all those across the Diocese who feel the effects of this decision deeply. And I would echo Archbishop Rowan?s words: ?It is still your church. Not mine, not Synod?s, but yours. Your voice matters and will be heard. It?s important not to give up.?
The door is open. We will, and we must, go through it together.
With my prayers and best wishes,
Bishop Trevor
This email has been sent to clergy, Readers, churchwardens, parish officers, Authorised Lay Ministers and head teachers in the Diocese of Canterbury. Please share with your colleagues not on email.

It is encouraging that he is not giving up and is hoping that progress of some sort can be made in a couple of weeks.

That's good nickel.

I almost hesitate to put my head above the parapet even amongst other christians but I go to a church which would probably be described as conservative evangelical. Although I don't particularly have strong views either way I know they would have voted against due to the lack of provision for the very sizeable minority who hold biblical or traditional views (I'd be interested to know how unrepresentative the house of laity actually is - e.g. based on church attendance - our church is the biggest in our area although of course there will be a range of views within individual churches). I thought this was a good article presenting some views from the other side.

I've been saddened by the reactions - particularly from some Christians and by the way opponents have been portayed in the media and their convictions not respected - our ministers are very godly, humble men who are highly regarded in our church and who greatly appreciate the contributions that women can make in the church whilst staying faithful to the bible. It will undoubtedly have a negative impact on the Church of England but then I guess we can sometimes expect to be "aliens and strangers" in society.