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Original poster

Christianity and homosexuality

23 replies

Hellsbells42 · 26/08/2012 22:40

I am a deeply committed, heterosexual Christian who acknowledges that most priests have superior knowledge than me, gained thru intense immersion in study. However, I struggle to reconcile what I believe the bible says about homosexuality with what priests etc say (not only in my church, in most I think and in the media too).

I believe that the bible is gospel and in my understanding of the story of Jonathan and David, god recognises their love as homosexual love and condones it.

What do other people think?

OP posts:
QuintessentialShadows · 26/08/2012 22:48

There are many things difficult to reconcile.

Sex before marriage
Divorce
Death, and life after death
Homosexuality
Prayer - whether it works
Ghosts

I think most Christians have problems with something in their faith. Some manage to reconcile, others manage to keep their faith despite being unable to reconcile a main issue.

Like me, I dont believe in Heaven, I believe when I die, I will rot. And that is it.
I also believe that it is perfectly feasible to be Gay and Christian.
My sister believes in Heaven, and that people can come back to help. She also believes in Ghosts. I think most interpret the Bible in their own way, anyway....

faeriefruitcake · 26/08/2012 23:29

I think if you accept that your God is all knowing, powerful and loving then what goes on in the bedrooms of concenting adults is none of your business.

I also don't think a Church that hides pedophiles from justice, condoned the holocaust, excommunicates rape victims has any idea what a loving God wants with the world and certainly doesn't speak for it.

DutchOma · 27/08/2012 09:02

Two wrongs (or any amount of wrongs) don't make a right, faeriefruitcake.

niminypiminy · 27/08/2012 09:46

Hellsbells, I agree with you. I profoundly hope that one day gay people will be able to marry in church, and I pray that the amazing richness of human love in all its forms can be celebrated by all churches. It saddens me that my church (the CofE) is so backward on this. Not all churches are - the United Reformed Church has a much more forward-looking position. And there is a lot of debate among Christians. I think change will come, and I pray that I will see it.

Hopeforever · 27/08/2012 09:52

As a priest, I take my first beliefs from the New Testament about the teachings of Jesus. Never does he mention homosexuality.
He teaches about our use of money, how we treat others, especially our parents, the poor and the outsider. He teaches about promiscuity and how to include children. Not sure we have got any of those perfect yet :)
I struggle with the way homosexual people are treated and will argue with those who hold entrenched views that have nothing to do with the love of God.
The church is not immune to wrong doing, it is run by a bunch of humans, who try and do their best by God, but we do get it wring sometimes.
Sadly only the bad stories make the press, and those are very sad things that we must apologise for, if it is out church that has sinned.
However there are many good churches, being welcoming places that share the love of God. They may not make the news, but they are there are growing in number.

Matildarae · 27/08/2012 10:17

Jonathan and David are best friends ie as close as brothers whatever gave you the crazy idea they were homosexual?

Tuo · 27/08/2012 18:16

What niminypiminy said!

I was reading recently that the Episcopal Church in the US has recently authorised a liturgy for the "Witnessing and Blessing of a Lifelong Covenant" for use with same-sex couples (e.g. here). Good to see that parts of the Anglican Communion are more forward-thinking than the CofE (though I gather not all US dioceses are accepting the new liturgy).

iggi777 · 27/08/2012 23:15

re David and Jonathan - obviously no proof of this, but people can point to David saying Jonathan's love meant more to him than the love of women, and lots of other ones about the depth of his love.

chipmonkey · 29/08/2012 20:04

Why is the idea of David and Jonathan being homosexual crazy, MatildaRae?

"Now it came about when he had finished speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as himself. Saul took him that day and did not let him return to his father's house. Then Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, with his armor, including his sword and his bow and his belt. So David went out wherever Saul sent him, and prospered; and Saul set him over the men of war"

Souls being knit together? Sounds like love to me!

Original poster
Hellsbells42 · 29/08/2012 22:37

I def think its a story of homosexual love. If one of the people had been female and one male, no one would bother trying to argue that they were good friends.

Thanks for the repliese everyone, I'm just feeling more and more like homosexuality isn't a 'sin' - as naive as that sounds.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hellsbells42 · 29/08/2012 22:42

By the way I'm c of e too - a few weeks ago we had a priest give a sermon on there being no such thing as homosexuality and how it was a choice etc. and that people could overcome these urges to lead lives pleasing to god.

I found myself totally disagreeing with him - but then realising that in the minority :( he was very 'hellfire and damnation'.

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iggi777 · 30/08/2012 08:12

It would be a pretty strange choice to make wouldn't it, given the amount of disadvantage and persecution it often leads to! In countries where you can be killed for being gay, people still do it - hardly something you'd do if it was a 'choice'. There are many, many ministers/priests who don't think like that (and that's not just counting the gay ones!)

ProPerformer · 30/08/2012 08:27

My church, as a whole, takes the 'gay marriage is wrong view too and the minister even emailed a petition against it rpund to church members! However despite that and the fact I am totally pro gay marriage I'm still happy at that church. Why? Because after a talk about the issue during the service I went up and spoke to the minister about my views, the fact that I know loads of gay people and am Bi-sexual myself (married to a man though). Well the minister obviously gave his speil about why he believes it to be wrong but he then totally blew me away by saying (not verbatim) "If you believe that so strongly then I encourage you to find a petition of your own for Gay marriage and send it out to church members along with mine. I believe I am right, but I'm only human and we sometimes get God's word mixed up, only god knows right from wrong and we are just interpreters."
I couldn't believe it, but sent round my own email too as he said. I thought it was really good of him to properly listen to my views, and after that no more has been said on the issue in church apart from in prayers people saying stuff like 'hope god leads the government to make the right decision'. (I think the people doing the prayers mean against but I say for.)
Interestingly - of all the people at church I talked to, thoseost strongly against gay marriage were people who don't know, or are not close to, any gay people which I found rather telling.

Tuo · 30/08/2012 14:14

Hellsbells... I'm about to send you a PM with a link which you'll find interesting. (Basically a rather senior cleric in the CofE saying it's OK to change your mind on such issues.) Sorry not to link to it from the thread, but it comes a bit too close to revealing my true identity to be comfortable.

alemci · 30/08/2012 14:33

it woudn't cross my mind that David and Jonathan were homosexuals. they had a brotherly love friendship and Jonathan went against his dad Saul who was persecuting David.

I don't think God condoned D and J's friendship either.

if anything David was a bit of a womaniser in later life e.g Berthseba

Hopeforever · 30/08/2012 15:14

Tuo. That link sounds really interesting any chance? :)

Tuo · 30/08/2012 15:55

Hopeforever - you've got mail!

Hopeforever · 30/08/2012 18:53

Thank you, will watch when the Paralympics have finished for the night. Great!

Original poster
Hellsbells42 · 30/08/2012 21:59

Thanks for the link tuo - will watch it tomo :)

OP posts:
Matildarae · 02/09/2012 16:36

Because its a deep friendship love- like brotherly love

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 02/09/2012 16:42

There is Christianity and there is churchianity - things we are told to keep us in our place. Christianity is about loving your neighbour as yourself, the rest is told to us by priests to keep us in our place.

thewhistler · 11/09/2012 23:11

Celebrate love wherever it is found.

Whatsoever things are good...think on them.

And

in Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free.

My church keeps getting mixed up and obsessed with all of this. if we only behaved with love and compassion to one another we would be less of a scandal to the rest of the world and less classed as hypocrites by the young and the unbeliever.

That great Christian (who had an illegitimate baby and an unhappy marriage) D L Sayers of lord peter wimsey fame said

As I get older and older
And stagger towards the tomb
I find that I care less and less
Who goes to bed with whom.

I so agree.

thewhistler · 11/09/2012 23:13

Ps Tuo, any chance of seeing that thread, please? Sounds interesting.

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