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Philosophy/religion

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(Respectful) question for Christians about God

36 replies

mummysmellsofsick · 20/08/2012 10:17

I am half way through a cofe confirmation course and I am interested to know what the general consensus is amongst Christians. I believe God is One, ie everything, good and bad, high and low. Does this make me not a Christian? My vicar believes God is good. I can't understand there being anything other than God, it makes no sense to me. I don't believe He is a person/ being with a plan for everyone who sits in the sky and makes things happen to people, but I have seen that something I would call the light of God is in everything, and especially in the places we don't expect... Could any committed Christians share their views on this and if possible give me chapter & verse on this subject? John talks a lot about God being Love but not about God being good. Do Christians believe that God is good? Is Christianity fundamentally a dualistic religion?

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RedMolly · 20/08/2012 12:16

I am not a christian, but if you don't mind me responding....

I used to be rc and understood the bad in the world to be the work of satan, rather than having to get my head around why god would let bad stuff happen. I also never understood how god could have a plan for us, but at the same time give us free will to deviate from that plan of which we knew nothing. Always felt like we were set up to fail. Of course, the problem of piling all the bad onto the devil to keep god's hands clean is that the devil would also be a creation of god - any arguments out of that one tend to go round in circles.

mummysmellsofsick · 20/08/2012 13:54

Yes those arguments do go round in circles because they don't really make sense. I find some of the explanations and sermons given in my local church facile and patronising and yet I still feel there is meaning in Christianity. I just wonder if the majority of Christians believe something different to what I do.

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RedMolly · 20/08/2012 14:09

I guess it is because a literal biblical interpretation of the bible doesn't stand up to scrutiny on this day and age, so anyone who still chooses to define themselves as christian has to try to square the circle - and it doesn't really square very well. Hence the vast majority have to come to accept things on their own terms rather than following doctrine. I've made the point on the other thread that it is hard to have discussions about god in the christian sense purely because the christian god does not appear to be a fixed entity for anyone other than fundamentalists. So one christian is not speaking for all iyswim, so you would not be alone in having your own ideas.

mummysmellsofsick · 20/08/2012 15:17

Yes, people do seem to have widely varying ideas within Christianity. I just wondered if the 'God is good' idea had any scriptural basis. I can't seem to find it although I should really read the new testament again in full and find out for myself

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MediumOrchid · 20/08/2012 15:37

I am a Christian so will try to answer some of your points - as best I can! I would say that God being good is a pretty fundamental part of Christianity. We believe that God created the world and human beings, but God gave them the choice to follow him or not, and they chose not to. This is why there is sin and suffering in the world, because humans chose to go their own way and ignore God. However, God sent Jesus to die for our sins so that we can be put right with God. God can't be both good and bad or it would have made no sense for Jesus to die for our sins.

Christianity is not really a dualistic religion as the powers of good and evil are not equal - God created the world and one day will triumph over evil. Satan, I believe, is thought to have been a fallen angel so presumably angels were given a similar choice to humans (I'm not really sure of my theology on this one!).

Where does the bible talk about God being good? Matthew 19:17 is one place ' ?Why do you ask me about what is good?? Jesus replied. ?There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.? ' The psalms also talk about the goodness of God e.g. Psalm 107:1. I'm sure there are lots of other places too!

It's a very very complicated subject. I'm happy to try to answer other questions you have (if I can), and I'm sure your vicar would be happy to clarify the church's position.

ValiumQueen · 20/08/2012 15:47

In order to be a Christian, it is my understanding that you believe in Christ being the Son of God, that he lived on earth, was crucified, and rose again. You also make a commitment to follow him, and try to live like him as much as possible, i.e. try to do good and kind things, and not sin.

From what you say it sounds to me that you believe in a god, but are not a Christian.

ValiumQueen · 20/08/2012 15:49

John 3:16. For God so Loved the world, that he gave his only Son, so that whoever believes in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

sciencelover · 20/08/2012 16:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NeverKnowinglyUnderstood · 20/08/2012 17:04

I recently had a great conversation with a friend of mine who is at vicar school,
he is more knowledgebale about scripture than I am.

anyway, we were talking about good and bad and predetermination etc.

We got to the point for me where I felt I understood. so here goes.
God - The Father- created the world and sent Jesus - his son to earth to live as a human. He was crucified and died - then rose again.

Why does god let bad stuff happen?? Why do you let bad things happen to your children? = you don't, we have free will they have lives of their own, we can not control everything for our children and no can God control everything for us. a) we have free will, and we live in a world influenced by the Devil.

I do not know if this helps with any of the stuff you are pondering, but there are knowledgable peole around who should be able to help more than I can.. I ma still very much on a journey.

ValiumQueen · 20/08/2012 17:36

Pantheism is possibly what you are describing according to my theologian husband. I.e God is everything, all around rather than a being. Wikka believes God is in everything, and is neither good or evil.

I prefer not to get into deep theological debates as I like to keep my faith simple. I do however believe if you say you are a Christian, a belief in Christ as the son of God, and a personal dedication to Him, is intrinsic.

RedMolly · 20/08/2012 17:53

Why does god let bad stuff happen?? Why do you let bad things happen to your children? = you don't, we have free will they have lives of their own, we can not control everything for our children and no can God control everything for us. a) we have free will, and we live in a world influenced by the Devil.

Yes, but we are not omnipotent beings who have the power to stop bad things happening. I think part of the trouble here - and i obviously can't talk for the op - is that some christians will say we have free will and god will not intervene, while others say he has a plan for us and will answer all our prayers (and all positions inbetween). I think this is the crux of the problem for a lot of people. There are fixed elements that define christianity (belief in god, jesus. the resurrection), but much else seems to be rather flexible, depending on who you talk to or what church you go to, so it can make figuring out what you believe, or more accurately what you are supposed to believe if you want to commit yourself to a faith, quite difficult.

Even when i was a practising christian i found the concept of the devil a hard one to accept.

ValiumQueen · 20/08/2012 18:58

Why does God let bad things happen? How come God gets blamed for all the bad stuff, yet no credit for all the good stuff? I do not know how anyone can hold a newborn baby and not believe? Life is a miracle, but nobody seems to see that anymore.

crescentmoon · 20/08/2012 18:59

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ValiumQueen · 20/08/2012 19:01

Love is not always giving you what you want. I love my children, but if I fed them nothing but chocolate, or let the, stay up to midnight etc.

crescentmoon · 20/08/2012 19:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedMolly · 20/08/2012 19:11

How come God gets blamed for all the bad stuff, yet no credit for all the good stuff?

I think this must depend on which way you are looking at it. If you are not a christian it seems that god gets all the glory for the good stuff and none of the blame for the bad!

NeverKnowinglyUnderstood · 20/08/2012 20:07

absolutely red part of my conversation with my friend was a yearning for a religion that demanded fit in or fuck off... I totally believe in God, and that Jesus was his son and so on, however from there, there are so many area's of interpretation that it can be hard to find my feet..

mummysmellsofsick · 20/08/2012 21:08

Lots of food for thought here. Thanks for the quotations too I will check them out... If anyone can think of any more specifically about goodness I'd be very interested. If you believe God is love, that seems to me very different from saying God is good. Love can be the greatest suffering of all. The way I love my son causes me intense suffering at times, because I don't want to lose him, I don't want him to be hurt or unhappy and it breaks my heart to know he will grow up and I won't always have him here. Love is richer than goodness, it contains a depth of passion and intimacy that I encounter in the psalms, in the song of Solomon, in the writings of some saints, in the passion of Christ. But, others may have a different concept of goodness and of love, and of course with the bible one would have to learn Aramaic to really understand what was meant.

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ValiumQueen · 20/08/2012 21:29

mummy do you mind me asking why you are doing the confirmation course? I am guessing you are older than 12. Feel free to tell me to sod off.

I am not sure 'good' is a word I would easily associate with God. Awesome, almighty, powerful, gracious, just, etc.

It depends whether you are reading the old testament or the new, as He is very different! It also depends what you mean by 'good'. Is it 'nice' or 'good to me', or is it Pure and Just and devoid of all Evil?

In the Old Testament God did some pretty horrid things, eg the Flood, Plagues etc, but after Jesus died for our sins, things changed somewhat.

Itsjustafleshwound · 20/08/2012 21:36

God is good. The OT is a history of man's relationship with God - we turned our backs on him, disobeyed him and worshipped false gods. Because he is pure, the only way we can know and have a relationship with God is through his son who was sent to cleanse us of our sins and so we can re-stablish our relationship with Him.

mummysmellsofsick · 20/08/2012 21:39

Ha ha valium do I really sound so little like a Christian! I'm doing it because I didn't finish the course when I was 10 and it feels like unfinished business. Also dh likes being part of a church community. I used to go to church a lot when I was younger, stopped just before what would have been my confirmation. Also I do believe in and love the new testament so I figure I'm not not a christian even if I am a bit of an odd one. Grin

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Itsjustafleshwound · 20/08/2012 21:41

Sometimes the answers we get from prayer are those we don't expect or want. Life is lived forward, but understood backwards .

ValiumQueen · 20/08/2012 21:51

No mummy I do not mean that at all. I was just curious as usually people are in their early teens when they do the confirmation classes. I did wonder if you were perhaps having to do it in order to get married or something. I think it is good to question and test a faith, otherwise it is just something 'inherited' . It is only when a faith is tested that it becomes real and personal.

I was brought up Baptist, but lost my faith when something horrid happened. I still believed in God, but did not like Him, and felt that he was taking the piss, playing with me like in a game of 'the Sims'. I found my faith again eventually, after my life got even shittier, and it works for me. I am certainly an 'odd' Christian, but I am forgiven Smile

I do hope you find what you are looking for.

RedMolly · 20/08/2012 22:16

Op - i think it is great that you are questioning rather than accepting something that doesn't seem right to you. If you feel you are at odds with the views of the vicar and the church you are going to, the christian faith is...err...a broad church. If this issue is a big deal for you it may be worth exploring other options - the quakers for example have a pretty liberal approach. Just a thought.

I feel like a vegan trying to convince you to have a steak!

Tuo · 20/08/2012 22:47

I've been reading this thread and some other recent ones, but haven't wanted to get stuck in, because I don't know if what I have to say makes any sense, and also because I am really busy at the moment and can only dip in and out, so please do forgive me if I post and run. It's not that I am not prepared to stick around and defend myself but only that I have stuff to do which I am too good at ignoring.

Anyway, my twopenn'orth, from a Christian pov.

I think that part of the problem when we try to think about these things is that it's so difficult (if not impossible) to get our heads around the idea of eternity that we fall into two traps.

Firstly we think of God as if he (or she, or it) were some kind of human being like us. A superhuman being maybe, but still someone who acts like us and thinks like us and makes choices like us. In so doing, I think we inevitably limit what God is. I sense (though I could be wrong) that this is what the OP is getting at when she talks about the 'light of God' - that she's trying to think beyond the idea of God as a paternalistic 'Heavenly Father', who loves us, but also makes choices for us, punishes us, or whatever.

And secondly we think about God's time as if it were the kind of 'and then..., and then...' narrative that we inevitably have to live by in our human lives. But if God is eternal, if God is in eternity, then there can be no 'and then..., and then...' but only a great big gigantic 'now'.

So, I believe that God created a universe which was free, as NKU says, and that this gift of freedom was both an enormous gift and an enormous challenge for the created world. God could have created a world without freedom and that world could, then, have been a world in which all created beings loved God unquestioningly and in which therefore they never screwed up, never sinned, never put themselves before God and their neighbours, etc. On one level this would have been a perfect world (and in the Genesis narrative it's symbolised by Eden), but it would have been a world in which created beings were no more than God's puppets, where they loved him not because they chose to do so freely, but because they were compelled to do so. And that would, ultimately, have been less generous than to give creation its freedom.

And because God is outside of time all the things which appear to us to be both subsequent and consequent ('because I did xxx, yyy happened'), simply are in the mind (or light, to use the OP's metaphor) of God. And if this is the case, then it doesn't make sense to suggest that God somehow 'changes his mind' about something because of my prayers, because 'before the prayer', 'the prayer', and 'after the prayer' are all 'now' to God. And, anyway, to change one's mind is such a human trait... another example of us assuming that God is like one of us.

So, I believe that God knows the choices that we make (have made/will make), but that he does not make us make them, but rather allows us to make them. So, fundamentally I believe that God is good, since creation, and our freedom within creation, is an act of generosity, from which everything else (including those things which in and of themselves are clearly not good) follows. Which means I guess that I agree with you (God is in everything) and also with your vicar (God is good) because I believe that God's goodness is at a deeper level than the transient goodness and evil of our day-to-day lives.

Except that now I've written all this and am thinking that it probably sounds like so much nonsense... I'm going to hit 'post' anyway, because I've spent some time writing it. But with the proviso that it may not make any sense at all.

Oh and just as a PS, OP, my DD was confirmed earlier this year and in her group there were, I think, six children and four adults, so it's not at all unusual to be confirmed as an adult.