Genuinely puzzled, why are local churches so strapped for cash when The Church owns so much property?

[Iceflower]

That's it really. I was having a chat with dd (14) and we couldn't understand why. We know locally The Church owns most of the retail properties and probably more besides, and yet I know at least one church nearby has been trying to raise enough for years to fix the roof.

Where does all the money go? This is a genuine question and not trying to accuse anyone/start a fight or similar [busmile] [buconfused]

The Church of England also has huge huge debts. It has to pay the wages of all it's employees, if you are in a poor area the amount given to the church locally probably barely scrapes the surface of the local ministers stipends. It also pays towards colleges to train clergy, support for its schools, the up keep of buildings (even the one that needs a new roof). Then on top there is a huge pension bill.

As for owning the local shops, at the most the Church is getting the rent on that property, it can't sell it as (never mind what that would do to the economy) it would then have no income to fund its future costs.

A lot of retail developments are owned or heavily invested in by pension funds. Which is very similar to the Church (except clergy tend to be long lived).

Asset rich, cash poor is a fairly common state to be in - think of all those stately homes that need a massive income for their upkeep, it's the same sort of thing.

Yup - a property is a liability with many expenses involved unless you can actually convert it to income in some way - their revenue earning properties don't outweigh their liabilities.

Well having lots of assets is different to having lots of cash flow. Churches cost a lot to maintain, lots of vicarages are very old and expensive to look afyer and even in well attended churches giving can be low. There is a huge pension bill too. They part fund schools too.

You can inherit a mansion but if you only get a minimum wage salary you're going to struggle.

Our church has a reasonably sized congregation AND some very generous members. But we still struggle to break even each year. There's the upkeep of the building (heating, on-going maintenance, replacing any stolen leadworks, insurances for buildings and public liability etc etc plus other utility bills - sewage, water, electricity for lighting, costs associated with worship, like candles (they can be INCREDIBLY expensive), robes, cleaning of robes, other sundries - palm leaves for Palm Sunday service, candles and oranges for Christingle plus all other service photocopying and support.

It's one of the few buildings in a community that belongs to EVERYONE in the community, not just those who go every week, so anyone can use it (which is fantastic - all are VERY welcome) so many people who aren't 'regulars' at church may have funerals or weddings or baptisms in the building where the costs of these may be met in part or all by the Church itself (often any charges may not cover the entire costs IYSWIM). Obviously this is not a problem as the church is there FOR this and for everyone and IMO it's always lovely to have more people through the doors.

Plus the money each Parish has to send to the central Church in Canterbury (sorry - don'y know the 'official' phrases for this) which are distributed to all the works outlined in the post below. Often these are based on the number of people in the PARISH, not the congregation, so if there's a MASSIVE population in the parish and not many go to church, or can afford to donate to church, then the costs just don't add up.

Plus old stone buildings and stained glass do often need a lot of upkeep, which is not inexpensive.

Wages for all the clergy and associated staff also include the hidden costs of emploment, like the employer NI and pension costs.

But all very worthwhile.

Sorry meant "don't" and "posts above"

Bb99, it's called the parish share. In my church it is equal to the donations received from the congregation so we only break even using other income, eg coffee shop etc.

Thanks HappyCamel. I find it all fascinating. How do you run/manage your coffee shop?

Also we often collect money for other things, like Christian Aid or different appeals as they come up.

Similar here (Methodist, and modern building - well, 1950s).
the money the congregation and members give over the year in regular giving + gift aid, just about covers what goes off to 'Circuit' - this pays salaries, maintains the 'manses' {=vicarages, but not usually so fancy } and a small amount pays for things like the Central office, publications, training, maintaining mission partners, staff such as chaplains and deacons who are not based in a Church, etc. etc., etc.

All building running costs (not counting replacement roof or heating system, plus maintaining all OFSTED regulations for things like playgroups and of course Fire regulations etc), plus insurances come from fundraising. It can be hard work especially with a smaller and/or aging congregation.

It's an annex at the back of the church. It's run by volunteers. Lots of older people like it as somewhere to go in the daytime for reasonably priced drinks, homemade cake and a nice chat. We have a charity shop too and are thinking about building a nursery on some spare land.

PM me if you want to chat more, I'm on PCC Finance Committee so I'm knee deep in figuring out how to balance the books.

Wow, thank you all for taking the time to explain, it all makes sense now. Thus far, I had heard a lot about The Church putting up rents regularly and businesses closing down because they couldn't afford the rent. There are quite a number of examples locally [busad] where the rent was more than doubled [bushock].

My church has a cash flow of about £1.5 million per year, but we have to very carefully decide how to fund capital projects. Out of our income, we have to fund the clergy team, admin, staff, and our mission partners, as well as the upkeep of the church and budgets for all our ministries - and our parish share (which is about £500k). We set aside enough money for predictable quinquennial repairs, but anything untoward has to have separate fundraising.

We have sold our flashy vicarage and bought an 'ordinary' house. We have also sold all our glebelands. Whatever our congregation donates is what we have to play with.

Wow! How big is your congregation ClaireAll ?

The methodist minister lives in our road in a £950,000 house.
Ditto C of E vicar in a nearby road, average value £700,000.

We have about 500 on the ER.

Okay if the church is in an expensive area, there is a minimum that any adequate Church is going to cost. Also as a Vicarage / Manseis also a work place there are things it has to/ should offer. So for instance it needs an office, and preferably one big enough so the Church secretary isn't virtually sitting on the Vicars's lap when there (as my BILs was in one place they had). Ideally you have 2 reception rooms, so the family/children can use one while meetings can be held in the other. Then ideally it has at least 4 beds, one for the Vicar and Spouse, one for boy children, one for girl children and one for guests (visiting preachers etc.).
Now most of the big old fashioned Vicarages have been sold, but it's ideal if the new Vicarage is convenient for the church, even if it is likely to be a soulless new build.
Bishops have even more impressive houses, but also have to entertain more and have more visitors.

Agreed, vicarages are working buildings, not just private residences. Also vicars have relatively low pay and long hours, free accommodation is one of the few perks.

Vicars can also be called to move at any time, our vicar with a young family i settling in his third village. If they do not own their own properties which they keep hold of they will also face a life of renting on the open market on a pension.

Often vicarages have to be a decent size because of the groups that run from them. Round here the very impressive vicarages have been sold and the vicars live in more humble accommodation, although it is still nice.

Many older churches require a lot of upkeep and the CofE pension scheme is supposed to be in a lot of trouble.