To just go to a jehovahs witness meeting?

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One of the older women at work is a Jehovah's Witness. I don't really know what they are but they don't like blood or birthdays. I thought they were just another type of Christian but apparently not.

She keeps asking me to go to a meeting and I keep putting her off. Thinking now that I should just go once and then never again!?

It sounds really shallow but I wouldn't want to give up Christmas!!

Part of me wonders what it would be like. Would they be over friendly? Would they be distant as I am a heathen type? Can't imagine it really.

I must be more cynical than I had thought - I don't think attending the same church as someone would stop me being aware and it wouldn't mean that I would ignore my instincts or any odd behaviour.

I don't know why they would not do something that simple, either.

I would guess that they are told to say that it is their own personal ministry because the Society wants to distance itself from any lawsuits. If it is presented that they are going out on their own, then the organization will say that they are not involved in the matter, and therefore they cannot be sued. Their main manual for the elders, which basically has the "rules" of the organization is a very odd book in that it has very little writing in it, and the biggest margins you will ever see, and the elders go to special meetings, where they are told most of what the "rules" are, and they must write them down themselves. There are many lawsuits that do happen, due to the extreme nature of disfellowshipping, and many sexual abuse cases that weren't taken care of or reported to the authorities, and that way it looks like the information doesn't come from the Society, but the elders themselves. I know of one former elder who ended up getting sued, because a disfellowshipped individual brought legal action against the society for their disfellowshipping policies, but the Society washed their hands of it, because the guidelines weren't printed in the Elder's manual, it was written in the Elder's own handwriting, and it was the Elder that got sued in the end, and lost. He's pretty bitter about that, because he was only following their instructions, and he requested help from the JW legal team, but got nothing.

Thanks, that makes sense and includes info I never did know. Did you read about the Spanish pensions case a few years back?

No. I haven't. What's that?

I just know about what I posted above, because where I lived at the time, there was a suicide and murder/suicide having to do with disfellowshipping that occurred within a very short time and distance from each other that involved several lawsuits, and the above elder was absolutely ruined from the lawsuit. He became one of those apostates that stand outside of meetings and conventions and have signs and shout, and got things published in the local paper, and I thought he was crazy and evil at the time, but working for the legal system, I can now see why they do things as they do. I really worry for my family, because pretty much all the males in the congregation are Elders, and they have absolutely no understanding of how vulnerable they are to legal action.

There we a court case in Spain a out pensions. The society claimed that they didn't have to pay pensions when bethel staff retired, or pay contributions to the government I forget the exact cost, because they weren't employees they were all volunteers. courts ruled they had to pay.

The Spanish bethel was built in the 80s using donations from Spanish JWs as the society wouldn't fund it apparently.

Shortly after the court ruling, the closed it and transferred all the printing etc to other countries and sent the bethelites off to find somewhere else to live. Their letter to the congregations is online explaining how the organisation continues to be guided by gods spirit.

Some would claim that there is a link between the events of paragraph one and three.

What do people get disfellowshipped for? Do you get a lot of warnings / meetings first?

There are a million and one reasons for disfellowshipping, Blob. They range from things like gambling and serious sexual sin to smaller stuff like disrespect for the Elders.

Have a look at this. If you scroll down there is a list of reasons. There is a disfellowshipping procedure including warnings and ending up with a judicial committee meeting where you are effectively tried and judged by a committee of Elders.

"There is a disfellowshipping procedure including warnings and ending up with a judicial committee meeting where you are effectively tried and judged by a committee of Elders."

Why why why would anyone who considers them to be a grown ADULT voluntarily CHOOSE to subject themselves to this sort of nonsense?

This is one of the reasons why WhiteShores can't leave. If she disassociated and then her family kept up contact with her, even in small ways like repeatedly greeting her in the street, they would be disfellowshipped.

The grounds used to disfellowship Ray Franz, a former president of the WBTS, were that he associated with someone who had disassociated themselves. His employer was an ex-Witness when the guidelines about treating disassociated ones as if they had been disfellowshipped came out.

'considers themselves' that should be...

I can understand why if people are born into it it is incredibly difficult to a) get out without harming others and b) get over the guilt which has been instilled from birth - ie that you are inherently 'bad' and need to spend your life seeking spiritual guidance

But words just fail me on people who go into this as adults.

Because the Elders are part of the authority structure which is God's voice on Earth. They are appointed by God, essentially.

The level of obedience expected and, in most cases, displayed is unbelievable. As is the obsession with keeping Jehovah's people "clean". I usually shy away from the term "brainwashing", but there is a very high level of mind control and psychological manipulation involved in JWs.

Anyway, it's not really voluntary. If you ignore the disciplinary procedures, you will be disfellowshipped anyway. Even if you have an inappropriate attitude to the procedures, you can be disfellowshipped without anyone being able to prove any other kind of wrongdoing.

You are definitely conditioned to it.

Bonfire, I actually can't believe know that I got sucked in. However, as I said above, they do kind of target vulnerable ones. Some of the things that happened in my day were: flooding student areas right at the start of the academic year when students were new and unsettled: looking at birth/death announcements: spotting neighbours and the like who were having marital problems or health problems: targeting people with drug/alcohol problems or people with disabilities or disabled family members.....

By the time you realise how controlled you actually are it's too late. Many Witnesses never really realise the level of control etc. because they absolutely believe that they are part of God's one, true organisation and that the high, head ones are God's mouthpiece on Earth. The other thing is that, while you are in the early days of a study or just talking to them on the doorstep, they are very reasonable and open to questions which they will answer from their bibles and by referring to their publications. It's not till much later that you realise that they only ever use their own bibles and Society books?mags and by then you usually accept that what they are saying is "THE TRUTH"

"Because the Elders are part of the authority structure which is God's voice on Earth."

Another example of why the concept of god CAN be such a dangerous and unhealthy one. (Obviously I'm biased on this one though, as an atheist).

stressedHEmum - oh dear, that is awful It must have been very difficult indeed.

in the interests of balance:

from a JW publication called Keep Yourselves in God's Love -

"In some instances, the disfellowshipped family member may still be living in the same home as part of the immediate household. Since his being disfellowshipped does not sever the family ties, normal day-to-day family activities and dealings may continue. Yet, by his course, the individual has chosen to break the spiritual bond between him and his believing family. So loyal family members can no longer have spiritual fellowship with him. eg he would not participate when the family get together to study the bible"

"in other cases, the disfellowshipped relative may be living outside the immediate family circle and home. Although there might be a need for limited contact on some rare occasions to care for a necessary family matter, any such contact should be kept to a minimum"

So its not a total blanket ban. But yes, it is hard on all involved.

Jambutty - how is any of that making it better? It's still encouraging emotional abuse.

Somehow it is all fascinating! I have an interest in the Amish and other American groups but JW is different as it feels local I guess. Not just some random American thing where the girls must wear skirts, no hair cutting and no kissing before marriage!

Just wanted to show that there can be exceptions in some circumstances.

Bonfire- I consider myself a grown adult and I am choosing to subject myself to this, because through my studies, which I am doing slowly and thoroughly, I believe the way the JWs interpret the bible is correct.

Bonfire, yes, leaving is very, very difficult for most people because they lose their entire support structure. In all honesty, it was much easier for me, in that respect, because none of my family were involved at all, so when I finally saw sense, they actively welcomed me back.

I still had the horrible fear of Armageddon and horrible death, though, for years and years, especially for my kids. I had the fear and guilt that I was robbing them of their chance of eternal life in paradise. That is definitely one of the techniques that is used to control people, by the way, the fear of eternal destruction if you make even a minor infarction of the rules.

If anyone has read the list of reasons for disfellowshipping that I linked to earlier and is wondering what parental tolerating of immorality is then I can give you a couple of examples.

If you have a teenager that you know is spending time with a member of the opposite sex unaccompanied, then you would have to tell the Elders do that they could take appropriate steps to bring that to an end.

In White's case, if any of her family discovered that she no longer believed, they would have to refer her to the Elders for instruction and reproof. If they didn't and it came to light, they would risk being disfellowshipped themselves.

If you catch your child masturbating, you have to tell the elders and are expected to take an active part in stopping them doing it.

If your child (even as a fully grown adult), buys a lottery ticket or raffle tickets, you have to tell the Elders....

See, it just goes on and on.

I find the whole thing incredibly emotionally abusive now.

"Just wanted to show that there can be exceptions in some circumstances."

The only 'exception' seems to be that if the disfellowshipped person is living with JW relatives, they aren't actually kicked out of the family home. They are allowed to stay, but only under the understanding that they have broken all spiritual ties and that it is all their fault. And they are a prime target for more bullying in that situation.

Aye, Bonfire, it's much more difficult if you actually live with family members who are still serving Witnesses. INteraction has to be kept to a minimum, some people take this farther than others, but I knew of people who actually stopped eating with their disfellowshipped teens and things like that. Essentially, they were sharing the same roof but acted as strangers. Very harsh, especially for young people.