Disagreeing with elements of one's organised religion

[Northey]

A nice and thoughtful thread to discuss in more detail the question of how we cope with finding ourselves in conflict with certain elements of our religions.

Is it a traumatic or bearable conflict for you? How do you decide which elements of a religion are non-negotiable and which are up for argument? How far can you go in disagreement before you decide you can no longer consider yourself part of that religion?

And other such questions.

Building on the questions raised in the other thread (in which some Catholic posters were stating their disagreement with Vincent's letter opposing gay marriage) I hoped we could have a more thorough discussion about this aspect of it.

I have (unconcernedly) used contraception, (initially traumatically but eventually merrily) had pre-marital sex and (painfully but practically) believe that abortion needs to be legal. I'm also not going to mass at the moment. Yet I consider myself Catholic. I don't feel mad or delusional but perhaps I am.

Unfortunatly I would have to say if you disagree with core fundamental beliefs maybe you should rethink your faith.
There are other christian groups (apologies if that is the wrong word) that allow these beliefs and are not as strict.

I'm a Catholic and I go to Mass. The only part I have difficulty with is the contraception. I did accidently become pregnant just before Christmas and wouldn't have gone through with an abortion, but I lost it anyway. I do worry about it, but can't possibly face having any more children.

How do you decide which are the "core, fundamental beliefs"?

I think that religion should be about making you a better person. Making you think about your actions and stop yourself causing harm to others.

For me I was raised christian. It turned me into a very angry person after a traumatic event. (I understand that this is NOT the case for everyone at all, many find it brings them peace)

But I found my peace in Buddhism. I did a lot of reading and it helped put me on a better path.

Oh, thank you for the pointer over here Northey!

So, here am I, raised a Catholic & here are all the fundamental things I disagree with:

Contraception
IVF
Masturbation
Lust
Heterosexual acts
marriage, as an indivisible union for raising children
mass every Sunday

Core things I am not sure I agree with or don't understand properly:
Trans-substantiation
Immaculate conception
that God created the universe

I feel very lapsed these days, although I tend to follow a rather CofE approach & go on high days & holy days. Had the DCs baptised & they have both made their first holy communion, but I only really did that to keep my parents happy.

Hanaka, are there any bits of Buddhism you don't agree with, or dd it all make perfect sense to you straight away?

I'm glad you found peace in it.

Bugsy, do you mean that you disagree with te church's teaching on contraception? Or that you disagree wth contraception?

Also, bugsy (sorry - one day I will manage to get all my questions on one post!), would you still call yourself a catholic? Or something else?

sorry, trying to type in too many places at once and do some work too

I don't believe that using contraception is a sin, nor is lust, nor is masturbation, nor are homosexual acts & nor is the use of IVF. I don't beleive that not going to mass on Sunday is a sin either or is getting divorced.

I don't really feel I have a religion to be honest, although on all forms I tick the RC box & as I say I still attend on a very CofE basis.

It didn't make perfect sense straight away there are interpretations of it that I didn't like, but reading further into it and finding what I thought made sense really helped. Such as different interpretations of the bible I suppose. I had to go back to basics with it

I have difficulty with some aspects of Catholicism, but I feel totally at home in the Catholic church and just keep Jesus' words to "love your neighbour as yourself" close to my heart (I often fail) and try to live those words.

My love for the church comes from deep within me, so, although I can be critical of it, I still believe it's the place that I belong.

I have a list as long as Bugsy's. I rarely go to Mass but this is partly because of the dreadful behaviour of my kids and I get embarrassed / stressed. Actually, there are some things about the Catholic church that make me down right angry. However, in spite of my disagreement with many things, the fundamental side of it to me is 1. Christianity, and 2. cultural. I was brought up by devout Catholic parents, went to mass every Sunday and went to Catholic schools. I simply can't shake it off. My kids are baptised and go to an RC school and I have never seriously considered a non-RC school for them, even at secondary level.
I see the good things associated with the Catholic church as outweighing what I disagree with and therefore I cannot leave.
(ps I'd feel very guilty if I left too )

Maybe, that is the difference Hiddenhome. I'm not sure I love the Church at all.
I went to school with the children who have finally agreed to testify in the High Court that our parish priest, who took my first holy communion, abused them - for years.

I myself was born & taken away from my mother and put up for adoption in an unmarried Catholic mothers' home.

We were terrorised & hit at school by the nuns.

My parents view of Catholicism is very uncompromising.

Maybe given my background, I was really shaken by the systemic abuse of children in Catholic homes in Ireland & England and the cover up that took place.

On the other hand I have huge admiration for the nuns where my parents go to mass, who work in the most awful parts of Africa & India to provide medical treatment & education for the poorest people in the world.

I also fundamentally disagree with the Church on all the aspects I listed above & have yet to have trans-substantiation & the immaculate conception explained to me in such a way that gives me a clear message & understanding for the rational behind it.

Oh, and as for trans subtantiation. I think that is absolute b***ks. Don't mean to offend anyone who believes it. Apologies in advance.

But Migsy1, that is absolutely fundamental to Catholicism!!!!! As far as I know, we are the only Christian faith that believes in it. Part of the reason it takes 7 years to become a priest in the Catholic Church too.

It was one of the reasons the protestants split from Catholics because they didn't believe in transubstantiation.

PostBellum the abuse scandals have made me feel very shocked and saddened as well, but I think that evil can exist within any organisation and that the majority of Catholics aren't like this. I was badly abused and tortured by my foster mother and her son, but I wouldn't condemn all foster carers. I hope that the church has turned its back on this evil and will make amends and nothing like this will be repeated. The Catholic church is flawed and has been deeply flawed in the past. I pray that it returns to its humble roots and moves forward. The Catholics I have met have all been lovely so though I've found it to be far more welcoming that the CofE tbh.

Transubstantiation is a tricky one, but, personally, I do feel different taking communion in the Catholic church and something feels changed within me. I don't know whether it's true, but I can accept it on a mystical level as I can't deny my personal experiences. I felt empty, bored and hollow in the CofE communion services

Bugsy, I think experiences like that, all supposedly done in the name of Jesus, would shake anyone's faith. They shook/shake enough people who didn't even experience it at first hand.

Hidden, I know lots of lovely people, some of the Catholics, some of the Jewish, some of them Muslims, some of them have no faith. I also know people from most of those groups who are not so lovely. Like you say, human beings are generally flawed, with some of them striving harder to live good & decent lives than others. However, religion is more than just the sum of the quality of the people in it - good or bad.

The Catholic Church very rarely speaks out on atrocities occuring in the world - at least as not far as I am aware.

Whilst, I fully appreciate that there will always be some bad pennies in an organisation as huge as the Catholic Church - the covering up & moving on of priests who were known abusers for decades - I find very hard to comes to terms with.

If I just wanted to believe in Jesus & the Gospels, there are lots of Christian faiths I could subscribe too. There is more to Catholicism than that.

Bugsy - So it takes 7 years to understand trans-substantiation? I've got no chance then. It has never made any sense to me what so ever, to the point that I think it has to be made up. Yes I know about the last supper, but the bread and wine, body and blood, was surely figurative.
Anyway, I don't care whether I believe it or not. I can add it onto the long list of other stuff I don't believe in. It doesn't affect my conscience because I believe that as long as I try to live like Jesus as much as I can, then my conscience will be clear. I think there is much more to being a Catholic than believing all the doctrine. I don't know anyone who does believe every last bit of it.
I haven't been to confession since I was at school either (about 27 years). I think that would probably make me officially a lapsed catholic.

No Migsy1 - that is an extrapolation too far. I said it was one of the reasons it takes 7 years to become a priest. The Sacrament of the Eucharist & all that it means, is yet another fairly fundamental part of Catholicism.

Any particular reason why you stay Catholic? I don't mean that horribly, I am just curious to understand why you stay - when so many other Christian faiths may cover your beliefs & you wouldn't have to opt out of so much?

Sorry, was being a flippant about the 7 years.

Yes, the one reason is that Catholicism was such a major part of my life for the first 18 years. My whole family is Catholic, most of my friends are too. I live in a VERY catholic environment. Therefore, I cannot divorce myself from it.

My basic beliefs are Christian and Catholicism is that. Therefore, I'm sticking with what I know and trying to ignore what I don't like.

Also, I live according to my own conscience not that of the Church. Therefore, it does not matter to me if I don't follow what the Church tells me. I feel I can pick and choose the bits I like. I have no moral issue with that at all.