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Original poster

Full Submersion baptism

20 replies

LotusPalm · 28/02/2012 14:14

Does anyone know anything about this? DH's parents are Evangelical born again Christians who go in for this kidn of thing. They 'allowed' DH is do this at age 4 - surely this isn't normal?

He didn;t find god and has spent the last 30 odd years battling with the fact that he wasn't good enough / clean enough / etc for God to accept him.

This has done so much damage it's stupid!

Anyway, i just wanted to know if this was common practice or whetehr they are nuts as i actually belive.

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Original poster

LotusPalm · 28/02/2012 14:15

Apologies for typo's - i'm quite cross at the moment...

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MeltedChocolate · 28/02/2012 15:46

"the fact that he wasn't good enough / clean enough / etc for God to accept him."

This is the opposite of what the Christian faith says.

I wouldn't allow my 4 yo to have a full submersion baptism even though I had one a couple of years ago.

Original poster

LotusPalm · 28/02/2012 17:26

This is what he felt, because he was 4 and everyone else who went through this process 'found god' - but for him nothing changed. So, in his head he alone wasn't good enough. I think the symbolism of the process is lost on a 4 yr old and it's done such harm.

Just wanted to know if it was normal practice or not really. Should the 'blame' be laid at the church's door for allowing it? Or his parents? Or is it normal and he doesn't remember someone explaining that everything wouldn't change and he wouldn't find god in the water?

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Pancakeflipper · 28/02/2012 17:33

Will blaming someone sort it out? Has he asked his parents about it?

I haven't known a church to do that to children under 17 yrs old. But I don't know a huge number of churches.

I don't want to pry but is this just one of several issues your DH has? Do others stem from his parents? Has he received any help in working through this thought of not being good/clean enough?

Original poster

LotusPalm · 28/02/2012 18:02

This is more about my interest in whether this is normal practice or not.

It's not whether he considers himself good or clean enough, but these are the feelings he had as a child, and has struggled with the religious aspects of his life since then. I just think so much angst and pain coudl have been spared if they had said no, you;re too young. And i was really surprised that they didn't!

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mumeeee · 28/02/2012 18:38

In our church children are do have full emersion baptism. But only if they have already found God and understand what's going on. They or the adults that get baptised are not baptised to make them clean.

Original poster

LotusPalm · 28/02/2012 18:49

Hi Mummeeee - do you think that it is possible for a 4 year old to have found god though? Do you think that they have enough understadnign to know what the whole thing actually means other than the fact that they see other people doing it and want to be a part of it?

I am genuinely interested btw, i have absolutely no experience of organised religion and certainly none of evangelical baptists.

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DavidaCottonmouth · 28/02/2012 22:15

We do full immersion baptism at my church (C of E).

It is not about washing away original sin - that is impossible.

It is about becoming a member of the worldwide church, and making a public declaration of following the ways of Christ rather than the ways of the world. The symbolism of baptism is dying to self and rising to new life in Christ.

mumeeee · 28/02/2012 22:42

Lotuspalm yes a 4 year old can find God. It's actually easier for a child to find God. They don't muddle things by trying to put logic into it. But personally I wouldn't let a 4 year old be baptised unless I was sure that I knew they understood what baptism meant. I have 3 DD's they all for baptised as children bur they were 10 , nine and almost 7 when they did this. DH and I Borg talked to them and made Ayer they knew baptism wasn't about washing sins away to make them clean. God accepts everyone whatever they have sone.

MarynotBeSarcastic · 29/02/2012 07:19

I think it is less to do with him being baptised at the age of 4 - you can be baptised at any age, and more to do with what he was taught and ALSO how his 4 year old understanding coped with it.

Sorry to hear he has struggled with this, you're right its stupid and wrong.

Original poster

LotusPalm · 29/02/2012 11:23

I think it was quite a fundamental church if that makes any difference. It did quite a lot of laying on of hands and casting out of demons.

He has made reference to original sin, but i dont know if he was being flippant or not.

It seems that he was taught that if you were good and pure then you could receive god, becasue he was a good and personal god, and that baptism was a rights of passage where you were made closer to god. So his expectation was that everything would be different after he was baptised. The reality was that nothing changed, but it seemed to for everyone else, so he was left feeling that there must be something wrong with him.

His parents were so pleased that he wanted to do it that he could never tell them that he hadn't seen or received god in the water.

My feeling is that no 4 year old can really understand the significance of what they are doing, and if they are sensitive and eager to please (as he was) it is the parents duty to protect them from something that they do not fully understand.

Blame will not help, no, but it will help me to understand what is 'normal' and what was particular to this church / his parents / him.

I hope that this makes sense

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MarynotBeSarcastic · 29/02/2012 17:03

Makes perfect sense, and shows a convoluted theology which IMHO has caused harm. I'm not sure it helps, but I went to a church service once, and I was the only person who wasn't "slain in the spirit". For them, it meant falling over and having to be caught. It didn't bother me that much, I just came up with the conclusion that I hadn't got the gift of "falling over" :o

I wouldn't call this church normal, but I have come across this sort of belief before. In fact I was once told I was going to hell by a member of the welcoming committee of one church :o. I can laugh about it now, but for a while I really believed it!

Since then, I've been able to talk it through with a vicar who was able to see me that that sort of theology is warped. I've also done a lot of biblical study, and the conclusion I came to is that God is a God of love, who loves us so much he made us in his image, and that we can turn to him again and again when we make mistakes, and because he is a loving caring Father, we can receive forgiveness.

I have come across churches before, fortunately not too often who teach that once you are baptised, you mustn't sin, because then you won't be forgiven. Rather I believe that at St Paul says, we all fall short, and the only person that didn't was Jesus.

springydaffs · 01/03/2012 01:02

The reality was that nothing changed, but it seemed to for everyone else

King's new clothes? I doubt your DH was the only who didn't 'find God' in the water.

Whatever has gone on here, it has messed up your DH. Perhaps he ought to talk to a specialist - maybe he could go to the local cathedral and get some good, sound biblical knowledge to scotch this awful fear and guilt. As MeltedChocolate says, what he believes (or was led to believe) is the very opposite of what Jesus taught.

I was brought up in a christian home and it messed up my head (mainly my mum's utter terror of hell - and that all us kids were heading there ). I'm a BAC now (to my surprise tbh) and all that fear is just plain nothing to do with God. The entire gist of God is love, forgiveness, mercy, peace - to all of us, all the time.

DavidaCottonmouth · 01/03/2012 05:14

I thought baptismal regeneration was a more catholic belief. I'm surprised if this was the teaching/belief in an evangelical church.

DutchOma · 01/03/2012 07:25

Well, if it helps, I have NEVER heard of a 4-year old being baptised by full immersion. The yongest I ever came across was an eleven year old and he was fully aware of the reason he wanted to be baptised ie he wanted to make the statement that he wanted to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. I don't know whether he still does, but what he wanted to say was at the time was a statement of intent and nothing to do with being made clean or not going to hell.

MarynotBeSarcastic · 01/03/2012 07:37

I've come across babies being baptised by full immersion, in the C of E.

MarynotBeSarcastic · 01/03/2012 07:42

David, I think the baptismal regeneration is "unless you be born again of water and the holy spirit", rather than any cleansing of original sin, which is more of a catholic belief. I've come across evangelicals who believe that if you sin AFTER you are baptised, then you are damned. I could probably even find the scripture they use to justify such a belief. However the thought that they could lay that guilt on a 4 year old is breathtaking in its stupidity, and perhaps they should be reminded of the passage that starts 'if you cause a "little one" to fall'.

Not all evangelicals are like this though, I hasten to add. But some of them don't exactly put the fun into fun-damentalism

Original poster

LotusPalm · 01/03/2012 09:42

Oh, i absolutely agree that it would have been 'empororars new clothes' and thats what makes it so sad for me.

How could a 4 year old have had the awareness that this was a symbolic thing, and not about everything being different after you have been baptised. He really felt liek he was the only one!

His parents have since left that particualr church, but were in it for a long time. i think they have moved a a less strict / fundamental church but are still evangelical.

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Original poster

LotusPalm · 01/03/2012 09:43

emperors!

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DavidaCottonmouth · 01/03/2012 17:11

I always understood baptismal regeneration meant that you need baptism in order to be regenerate (which is what the OP seems to be describing), and that this was basically the RCC position.

Evangelicals don't tend to go in for baptismal regeneration for several reasons, eg that most people coming to baptism already have faith (for infants, it is the faith of their parents), and that not many people seem to be regenerate after the sacrament. It is much easier to do it as a sign of belonging to the church, making a decision to follow Christ, and in obedience to the gospel.

A lot of people, often those outside the church, see baptism as a washing away of (original) sin, and rightly have a problem with this theology. You can't wash away the sin inherited from Adam because it is part of our DNA as humans. Of course, it is clear that baptised people continue to be wretched sinners until their dying day.

I have seen full immersion baptism in the RCC of infants. My niece was dunked at 6 weeks old. They had a beautiful octagonal stone baptistry that held about a foot of water.

In our church (CofE, evangelical wing), we have a traditional font which we use for infants (and anyone else who wants it), and baptism is by pouring. For a believer's baptism (from around age 12), we have a deep coffin-shaped pool. We are about 50:50 within our church family as to what to do with our children. About half go for infant baptism, and half let their children take themselves to baptism.

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