"But" Catholics.

[serin]

I thought I had found a home within the Catholic Church but I am struggling (really struggling) with two aspects;

One is the discrimination towards people who are gay.

The second is the hypocrisy, when Jesus stated that we should love one another, surely that didn't come with conditions attached?. There is lots of cosying up in our church (s'long as it is with other Catholics) lots of collections for our already very priviledged offspring (to attend events or pretty up the already gorgeous school).

DD attends the school and nothing is valued there except academia and how rich your parents are. The G&T programme seems to be give a lot of precedence, it is all some of her friends talk about. This isn't sour grapes, she was asked to join but declined on the grounds that her friend wanted to attend but was told she wasn't clever enough!. I would love them to be involved in some sort of community projects outside of SVP. To be twinned with a school in a developing nation for instance or to allow their facilities to be used by other local groups.

The school down the road from them takes kids from tougher backgrounds, it is literally falling down. DD's friends call it chav central and I have heard their parents make many disparaging comments about it. But the teachers there are so committed and are trying to make a difference with very little resources.

DD would move there if she were not in the middle of GCSE coursework and both DS's will be going to "chav central".

I have been praying more (through lent) and this all feels so wrong. I do speak out and write letters and I tried to speak to the priest. The next week the sermon was about 'But Catholics' ie how there is nothing worse than someone who claims to be Catholic but doesn't like this or that.

I think that is a dangerous attitude as how is an organisation to grow or develop if it is not critiqued or reviewed?

We have redirected the monthly direct debit from the school to Unicef but what would you do? stay and keep protesting or walk?

Oh sorry! didnt realise that post was so long

'But Catholics' indeed! So no-one should breathe a word of criticism of the authorities? That was hardly the approach taken by the man in whose name they are supposed to act. Bunch of Pharisees.

Don't forget endemic child abuse in the list of offences committed by the Catholic church... again, hardly befitting a church that claims to worship a man who said 'suffer the little children to come unto me'. Maybe if more people had said 'but...' thousands of victims might have been saved, instead of being threatened and harassed into keeping quiet.

I think you can guess what my answer would be. Worship elsewhere.

I tend to think that each church has it's own community atmosphere.

For example, my local church ( I'm catholic too) is in a deprived area, always packed to the rafters and very active in the local community whatever your religious persuasion is.
The two local catholic schools don't really share their facilities but to be fair they don't really have any......

I think it is ok to disagree with some of your churches teachings, people have been doing that since the dawn of religion and thats how religion evolves. It doesn't make you less committed, there are plenty of Catholics who don't agree with all of the ideology, I think this whole " but Catholics" is missing the point. Times change, the church needs to change with it.

Is there an alternative catholic church you could try? I tried a couple before I found my "local".

I don't know any Catholics who are completely 100% comfortable with teachings on homosexuality (and women's reproductive health) - am only very newly edging my way back in and just have to push most of that to one side for now. I did talk to my parish priest about it, a bit, he was obviously not about to offer a sort of pick and mix religion where I can choose the bits I want but he didn't think these were obstacles I couldn't find a way round. It's not supposed to be easy is it?

I don't see how things will improve if everyone who sees things in more normal ways leaves. I think it's more important than ever that the Church is built up of people who care about these issues. So I would stay and actively look for ways to get the congregation involved in the community as a whole, not their own elitist group but the area you identified. I don't know how - youth work? A sports group or something like that?

Do you have any skills or time you could give?

Thanks for your replies.

Mitchie, I work in the NHS and for McMillan and treat everyone equally at work. I love that the NHS is so accepting of everyone and I do find it conflicts with the teachings of our church.

I ran Guides for many years (10) and helped with the first communion programme at church for 4 years, I left that after an evening out with the other catechists when the main topic of conversation was how which of the girls would be most likely to wear a hideous meringue.

I just can't accept that, in a faith environment, someones sexuality or social standing is relevant to absolutely anything.

I wish you were in our parish, Serin, then we could fight together.

The parish I live in at the moment feels insular, cosy and inward looking to me too. I?m often tempted to drive to the next parish which is a large, inclusive parish (with nice music) that does a lot to reach out to the wider community. But when I pray about it I find that I am always (reluctantly) drawn further into my current parish, and I think that my role is to stay and try and improve things. I?m really not the sort of person to put my head over the battlements, I prefer to slip in to Mass and sit quietly at the back. In previous parishes, where I have been happy, I have hardly said a word, but I?ve found myself getting more and more involved in this parish because I am not happy, and along the way I have discovered that many, maybe most of the other parishioners feel the same way, which makes it easier to fight. I had a lot of rows with our priest initially, because once I decided to fight I did fight anything he said that sounded exclusive rather than inclusive, but I think we understand eachother better now and he has become a lot more supportive of our efforts to change things.

Things are improving in our parish, especially as more and more people begin to see it is possible to change things. It can be done. I would be much happier in a more open parish, but I can see that God has thrown all of us together in our current parish for a purpose, and however inadequate we feel, he has given us what we need to turn it round?.it is very hard though ? I would like to enjoy it more and to be able to worry less, but I try and remember that being a member of a parish is as much about what you can give as what you can take, and working to ,make the church more open and inclusive is something we can all give.

I think what I am trying to say is, don?t let these attitudes drive you away. Perhaps God is asking you to be the catalyst that brings change about in your parish?

Thankyou for your encouragement Hazeltree.

I am not sure I have the energy to be a catalyst for change though The more I do the more I just feel pushed away by them all. Have taken to popping into Mass on a weekday when I don't even have to talk to anyone or listen to how their 'adorable' teens are being funded to go to Lourdes/Worth again (whilst said kids are sat at the back taking the piss out of what the poorer kids are wearing).

They drive me crazy and if I say anything no doubt the next sermon will be about planks and eyes.

I get the distinct impression God wants me to do something but maybe more practical.

Serin - 100% behind what you're saying. I'm also a Catholic and find that whilst there is lots to rejoice over in the church, including a lot of the social action that goes on in the UK and abroad, there is also much that is very difficult to understand and put up with.

Thanks for your encouragement, hazeltree. I too find that there are many in the parish who want change, who want debate, who want to break down some of the daft barriers that exist between our church and others. I do some Christian Aid stuff, as a rep from the Catholic Church, and that, thank God, brings me into active contact with other churches. Is there much in the way of ecumenical activity in your area, serin?

BTW, are you watching the Thursday evening BBC 4 series 'Catholics'? Last week's was about a seminary in London and I think this week's (or next's?) is about women.

It is hard, especially if you feel you are alone, but I am sure there must be other people in your parish, Serin, who feel the same as you do.

Is there any room for starting to build something practical within the parish, or with other local churches as Issy suggests?

I hope you find a way through.

I have a friend who is a Baptist minister and another is married to a vicar (we are close and our families have been on holidays together). I do go to Churches together events and especially like the way the salvation army operates. They seem to work tirelessly to help others.

I hadn't seen that programme advertised Issy but I will watch this week.

Quite so, Edam. I'm 64 next month and I've heard ''but we knew it was going but we had to think of our homes/families/jobs''. ''but you had a roof over your head''. Blah, blah, etc. for years now. I'd steer well clear of the RC church, OP, and find a church less hypocritical.

Marjoriew ? if someone in your family does wrong, do you abandon the rest of your family? The Christian approach surely would be to address the underlying problems, support and seek justice for those who have been hurt, pray to God for the strength to be compassionate and understanding not only to those who have been hurt but also (the difficult side of Christianity) to those who have done the harm.

On the issue of child abuse, a lot has been done (at least in England and Wales ? I have no experience of elsewhere) to put robust procedures in place for child protection. What has been done in the past, unfortunately, cannot be undone, but we have to look to the future.

The ?Catholic Church? is not just the institution of the vatican, the priests, bishops and religious, it is each and every one of us lay people too. It includes flawed people at all levels, but many many more ? hundreds of millions - of faithful, good, kind and honest people doing their best to live compassionate lives (often falling short but that is why we need to be forgiving of eachother and ourselves, as God is). It is not something we just go to on a Sunday, like the cinema, or the shops. It is what we are, our whole identity.

For most of us our experience of the Church family is through our local parishes and for most of us it is there that we have to try our best to turn our parishes into the beacons of His love in our local communities that they should be. Reaching out to the wider community and trying not to fall into comfortable cosy inward looking cliqueyness.

Sometimes it is hard because you can feel you are fighting alone. Sometimes God does call people to leave use their gifts elsewhere. But if God calls us to stay in our parishes and be catalysts for change, we know that it?s likely he is calling others to do the same. We know He will give us the strength and resources we need to do it..How could we then just walk away?

I am not a Catholic but I am a Christian and I would honestly say that I don't think there is a church or community without some flavour of hypocrisy.

That doesn't mean that we should all give and top ourselves. Instead we need to decide where we fit and what we can live with in our lives and in faith walk.

I would ask myself and God whether this is it for me and how I go about challenging the problems or whether it is time to look elsewhere.

Firstly, no one asked me if I wanted to be a Catholic - it was foisted upon me by my parents and then reared in that organisation by those who were entrusted with my care and the care of thousands upon thousands of children like myself.
Secondly, your statement regarding the Catholic Church is not just the institution of the Vatican - let me inform you that the Vatican - the figurehead of the Catholic church has spent decades trying to cover up what their priests, bishops and nuns perpetrated on innocent children. The treatment and abuse perpetrated on us has blighted all of our lives. I run a forum for survivors of the Catholic Church abuse and if you were to read some of what is there, you would think twice about patronising someone like me and advising me to forgive what was done in the name of the Catholic Church. I do not and never will forgive the Catholic Church for what they did to me and others. Don't think that yourself and other advocates of the Catholic Church are immune or that ''it will never happen to you''. Following the teachings of any religious blindly without question is unwise and foolhardly.

Just to clarify I was a member of a C o E church for a a while as a teenager. Children and young people were seen and not heard and despite a lot of effort from myself and a few friends eventually I gave up and went elsewhere.

It was sad and upsetting at the time but I don't regret going to another church at all.

Marjoriew,
I'm not attacking you, just explaining. We're all aware of the terrible things that happened, and the degree of the cover-up - that's partly why I mentioned it, the issue is often hovering below the surface on these threads and I don't think that helps, they need to be discussed and acknowledged openly. I also agree with you that "following the teachings of any religious blindly without question is unwise and foolhardly" too, surely that is the point of this thread - that being willing to be a "but" catholic where necessary, and fighting complacency and hypocrisy where we find it is a good thing to do?

It makes no difference whether you question the teachings of the Catholic Church or not. Homosexuality, AIDS, you name it, they still adhere to it. How can any sane or intelligent person follow the teachings of an aged bloke in a frock with a lifestyle that would more than likely feed a large number of people in a Third World country?

Yes, your local Catholic Church might be a safe haven for you and maybe that's what some people need. Personally, I don't. But, inevitably, if you in your family life feel that at one point in your life going to be at odds with those teachings, then you will see how steadfastly the Church holds onto it's power and authority over yourself and your loved ones.

It all sounds very pre Vatican 2 to me. The church has changed a lot over the last 2000 years and it will change a lot over the next 2000. Personally I think we will see enormous changes within my lifetime but its huge and lumbering and slow. It won't change without the involvement of the laity. Your priest sounds like he thinks that what he believes to be the true is in fact true, just by virtue of him believing it.

I would challenge the priest on how his 'but Catholic' stance falls in with the Vatican's declaration of religious freedom. If you aren't allowed to believe freely then its not a genuine belief so its pointless. Maybe he should read a bit of Thomas Aquinas, or Cardinal Newman, "conscience first, and then the Pope" and all that.

I think the collections to send kids on trips is a bit odd. Our PTA will run events to raise school money, some of which will sub trips for some dcs but second collections in church are for other things, some of which I support and some of which I don't.

Do you have a parish Sister you can talk to? It sounds shit. I wouldn't walk without a fight though. Is your Bishop any good? I don't know many people who aren't 'but Catholics', we are the church, all a billion plus of us with our own ideas.

Thanks everyone.

No there is no parish sister and although the Bishop seems nice enough we rarely hear from him, much less actually see him.

I like the idea of reading Thomas Aquinas and Cardinal Newman, I will do so.

Marjori If you were to word process your rant with "black people" replacing "the Catholic Church" you'd get hung out to dry and quite rightly. The blanket stereotyping you try to perpetuate would not be acceptable to any other group, so why Catholics?

Me and millions of other sensible, thoughtful, compassionate Catholics are sick to death of being the butt of the last acceptable prejudice. The organisation is not perfect but the good it does far outweighs the bad - most of the work is local, charitable and done in private without fanfare or fuss.

Let's have less of the old cliches being trotted out "men in frocks", "child abuse", "kiddie fiddlers" "Gallileo" "sell the treasures to feed the poor" etc etc etc. We've heard them all before and they remain cliches. Lazy posting if I may say so.

No doubt the stories on your forum are harrowing. But they are not the whole truth any more than Haringey was the whole story about social workers, Ian Tomlinson the whole story about the police or Abu Hanza the whole story about Islam

You speak just like the rest of your ilk. ''It never happened''. ''It wasn't as bad as that''. Tell it any way you like but it did happen. I know that and so did thousands of others. If you are ashamed to be a Catholic, just say so. I would be.

I am not ashamed to be Catholic.

I don't have an ilk

If your dd is settled in the school, has friends and it is academically a school which performs well, I would not move her now in the middle of GCSEs. I think partnering a school in a developing country would be a good idea, have you suggested that and would you be willing to get involved in setting that up?

I think you will find that in every religion and indeed every group/club/organisation worldwide there are evil men and women who infiltrate that organisation to prey on the vulnerable. You might as well say that you don't want to take your children to school in case one of their teacher's is a paedophile.

The church has made many mistakes, they are bound to because they are human and as human beings we make mistakes. They admit to that.

As to the gay thing, the church's stance on that is that they do not and would not stop anyone from loving another. What they will not do is agree with or in any way justify gay sex. But when you look at how they view sex in general, that is hardly surprising. They see sex as a loving act between a man and a woman in marriage as a commitment and endorsement of their love for each other and with the added benefit of producing children.

Now as a catholic there are large sections of the church that I do not agree with. Jesus himself did not agree with large parts of the temple such as the money lenders and the strict rules governing work on the Sabbath, but that did not prevent him from worshipping in the temple.

This is how I see it. As a catholic I can work from the inside. Often people are surprised that I'm religious at all as I come across as completely "normal" and when they do find out they are intrigued. They'll criticise the catholic church plenty and I'll answer them as I do on here.

You will find good and bad aspects of every single religion. The catholic church has been pulled apart by a largely catholic hating media who have ignored other atrocities committed within the Church of England and Heaven help you if you even so much as hint that the Islamic movement is far from perfect. But I think what the catholics have going for them is this ability to admit to their failings and a complete openess and honesty about what they do believe in. We are not afraid to debate and agree to disagree.

My faith is not contained within an organisation run by men. My faith is contained within my heart and it just so happens that I have chosen to express that faith within the catholic religion as I feel it's a religion that suits me the most. I believe in Holy Communion, I believe in marriage and I am proud to be a member of a church that dates back to St Peter. Others are equally proud of their own churches and their own faiths.