Why do some people find it hard to believe in God?

[MosEisley]

I believe in God.

However, I am attending an adult confirmation class and we have been asked to consider why some people do not believe in God. DH and I came up with:

• there is no absolute proof of God's existence
• they are rebelling against a strict organised religion that they can't accept as literallly true

If you know someone who doesn't believe in God, why don't they?

"Yep Grimma. The church should always be moving with the times whilst retaining integrity and central tenets."

Is that all? Shame it's practically impossible to get 'the church' (whatever that is on a worldwide scale) to actually agree on central tenets, and act fairly and reasonably as a result. And abolish all the persecution taking place in the name of 'god's will'. (As I'm sure you know, the UK is a liberal haven compared to some countries.)

I suppose liberal Christians might have more chance of effecting change from the inside than anyone else... just seems a bit ridiculous that it's necessary in the first place.

It is indeed Bobbin. I despair regularly.

However, I still believe in Church. Not as an institution but as a gathering of people coming together to worship and importantly to look outwards and care for those around them. And I see the good many, many churches do and still have some faith in them, no pun intended.

Persecution taking place in the name of 'god's will' is exactly that, in name only. I could get very cross for a very long time about this but I'm already frothing today with the whole benefit reform issue so I will keep it low key

The church should always be moving with the times
But why does it have to? Why wouldn't an omnipotent God have the rules written so that they were interpreted the same way for all generations.

That's where the central tenets of faith come in, the creed if you like - unchanging beliefs. But why shouldn't the church Jesus set up for believers to gather and serve those around them move with the culture - after all, they cannot serve those around them if they are stuck in archaism and rules bound by society of hundreds of years ago

It makes sense to me. We believe in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, etc etc. We are an ever changing and hopefully growing community who reach out as Jesus did. Moving with the times is a given.

Because a lot of the justification for Christianity is, it's true because it's written in the Creeds/Bible/Catechism. These aren't actual reasons. :L

IN fact if the church is not moving with the times it is dead in the water. It's vital to remain fresh, to be ever reviewing process, to have vitality and vigour and passion. And I'm not against tradition. Some find it incredibly helpful, which is why it's good that the church has many expressions. But in all, there needs to be a process of review, of change, of thought.

Looking at other believers, it's possible to do things differently. I've been part of a Quaker meeting discerning the will of God, which I found genuinely quite disturbing, but also useful. If only, in my day job, we were all required to SHUT UP for as long as it took at the end of a meeting and then to agree before leaving on what we were going to do. Stopping talking is a powerful thing. I very much like the relative freedom from Holy Books in the Society of Friends - as a person addicted to literature, I can say that reading is or can be quite a selfish thing, involving no interaction with other people's feelings or views.

Of course, I believe that they are not actually discerning the will of God, but just using self-discipline and thought to achieve a better world. What a bunch of weirdos! No wonder there's only 35000 left in the UK .

I meant omniscient not omnipotent in earlier post.

after all, they cannot serve those around them if they are stuck in archaism and rules bound by society of hundreds of years ago
Absolutely true, and (because religion is a product of human minds) absolutely right that the church should move with the times.

But if it was actually the product of God's mind why are the books full of rather nasty bronze-age ideas? Why have 'an eye for an eye' in the OT and then overturn it to 'turn the other cheek' in the NT - why couldn't he have said what he wanted in the first place? OK, before anyone says 'Jesus was a game-changer' - yes but the rules have been changing since Jesus.

Yet again, the simpler explanation is the atheistic one.

Just flying in and out quickly - a church social do (aka wine, food and natter ) beckons. Just to say madhairday I support all you are saying.
It is so hard for me to explain my faith and all that it means to me. And then having to justify it over and over again.... I am sure I will be accused of giving an evasive answer here, but it is like trying to explain to someone what, say, joy, or worry, or any other emotion feels like if you've never felt it.
Anyway got to dash now, will hopefully be back later in the week.

I don't think that's evasive, tuffie, it seems quite accurate to me. Hope you have/had a lovely evening (I miss church socials.)

Faith really is far more to do with emotions than reason. As I think I said earlier, losing faith was a lot like falling out of love. All the rational arguments I encountered for not believing might have been resisted if I'd still 'felt' that God was there.

Lol, I'd rather stick hot pins in my eyes than go to a church social

Yeek - talking of socials I just had a flashback to the wild-eyed evangelist at the church toddler group I once mistakenly attended...

evangelist: "Birth - it's just like a miracle, isn't it?"

me: "er, yeah..."

evangelist: "you WILL be back next week, won't you???"

me:

No I didn't really, of course. I stood there like a lemon for 30 minutes trying to avoid the subject of god and the miracle of birth. Unsuccessfully.

I'm sure your church socials aren't like that madhairday. While you're sorting out those non-liberal Christians can you do something about toddler group evangelists too?

Grimma are there non-theist socials at a local Unitarian or Friends church? You could do the social-ing without the God-ing. :)

I'm not sure that Unitarians in the UK are as non-theistic as some in the US appear to be. My impression is that in the US some 'unitarian' churches are 'anything/nothing/everyone welcome' which did sound quite fun, but here they are simply Unitarian as opposed to Trinitarian theists. DH goes to Humanist meetings and Skeptics in Pubs, I'll do that when DD is old enough to be left of an evening (or come with us if she chooses).

Wine at a church social? - indeed, the church does move with the times. Or maybe its an Anglican vs Nonconformist thing - strictly tea or squash IIRC.

Yeah, you don't have to believe in anything to go to some Unitarian churches. But some of the people are very devout. It's the same with most Friends meetings here, I think.

Because I don't believe in invisible beings. Now if aliens came to Earth, they would be the new religion (if they did not shoot us all first).

Grimma your post about falling out of love made me a bit sad. But yes I can understand the whole thing of emotion vs reason. I think the difference for me is that I have found the times devoid of emotion or 'feeling God is there' are still richly filled with God and that I don't abandon my reason in having faith. It's hard to explain. I guess it's like a long term relationship kind of - the times without feeling, where you have to work at it, are sometimes the times where most foundations are laid. What I'm trying to clumsily say is that there are times I feel devoid of God's presence, no doubt about it, and can empathise with the 'falling out of love' thing. But for me there is always the constant of sure knowledge of love, whether felt or not.

Wine at church socials? Of flipping course. What would be the use without it, I ask you? Mind you church socials do vary greatly, from huge amounts of fun and laughing til you hurt right through to the incredibly tedious and cringeworthy. I have frequented both. I drink large amounts of wine at both

Ah now. Toddler group evangelists. Well well. I was a toddler group leader. Maybe it was me

You may not think me such a liberal though. I like to call myself a charismatic post-evangelical post-liberal. Make of that what you will

Our 'church socials' normally involve equal quantities of talking and drinking, which is to say, a lot of both! And late-night deep drunken questions, and resolutions to set up new groups to discuss the writings of the early church or the medieval mystics (these groups never do get started up, obviously...!)

I'd agree with you, Madhairday, about feeling God's presence. And what a lovely way you expressed it.

That's it Holo, the late night deep questions and wine thing. We did that the other night at my women church leaders jolly conference. I'm still catching up on sleep.

Mad - don't be sad, for me it was a liberation. Not that the God I'd believed in was the nasty guilt-inducing type or anything like that, far from it -I mean more a liberation from the tangle of inconsistencies. A weight off my mind.

OK. still a leeetle bit sad though But happy you feel liberated. :)

Off to bed. Night.

Well, when I say church social, the only thing that's churchy about our socials is the wine and maybe the odd piece of bread (usually a baguette) with the food. As for the rest, just a load of mad,deluded and irrational people enjoying each others' company. Grimma, can I say how good it is to hear your views, as you make your points in a nice, unpatronising way. As I have said loads of times before, I accept that you are just as likely to be right ,and us lot wrong, but you don t make the sort of "I KNOW I'm right and you're all wrong " sort of comments. Maybe it's because you have felt in the past what we feel now, and so have more understanding. I'm glad you're happy with how you feel now.

My ex found god after I left him. He's caught up in this weird speaking in tongues sect, that have the cover of being anglican but it's the full, foaming at the mouth Alpha Course jobby. Jon Ronson's documentary on them was pretty disturbing. We actually used it as evidence he was mentally ill - when he dragged me through the Family Courts, going for residency of my 2 youngest (the same 2 kids he hasn't paid a penny of maintenance for in a decade). At one point he was bombarding me with texts saying things like:
"Tell [son's name] Jesus is the son of God."
I used it as evidence he wasn't fit to be around kids - and won. He only gets indirect contact. I found it quite heartening that the judge saw his evangelism as evidence he was not the full shilling.

tuffie

I'm a bit pissed off with the congratulatory attitude you have with Grimma, I'm sorry, I know it must be a little uncomfortable for you but at last atheists are actively and publicly voicing their opinions, just like Christians have been doing unsolicited for donkeys years! The days of unquestioning respect fir your beliefs is over, sad for you but true. I'm allowed to say that I'm as passionate about my stance as you are yours.