Why do some people find it hard to believe in God?

[MosEisley]

I believe in God.

However, I am attending an adult confirmation class and we have been asked to consider why some people do not believe in God. DH and I came up with:

• there is no absolute proof of God's existence
• they are rebelling against a strict organised religion that they can't accept as literallly true

If you know someone who doesn't believe in God, why don't they?

Agree with Spero.

And just to say that hope and evil don't have to have ANYTHING to do with religion, really they don't.

Yes it's nice that any 'bad' aspect of life can have something to offset it - that we can be thankful for and enjoy - but you don't need to believe in god to appreciate that.

Evil is spoken about like it is some separate entity that causes humans to do bad things, even I've noted by some atheists.

What do you mean by "hope", though?

I think you and I may just call it optimism and an optimistic outlook can have a placebo effect which the theist will put down to hope and the positive result as gods help.

Quite probably. :)

I was born ridiculously optimistic and happy. My uber-superstitious hillbilly great-grandmother used to tell my father that humans were not supposed to be so happy and I would die young. He didn't tell me that until I had been an adult for quite some time...what a weird old woman! I miss her a lot though; when she wasn't going off on some bizarre tangent she had a lot of sense.

:) that's funny, Cheerful!

I know, what a nut, right?! Apparently she also wouldn't let anyone pick veg from her garden if they were having their period, but that may be heresy. :o

Oh, I love family folklore!

CY

Hope. For me it is more than an optimistic outlook, simply because I see it time and again in the midst of the most desperate circumstances. It's a knowledge that there is purpose. It's a certainty of God with us. But it's also something beyond, something mysterious tied up with one day there being no more pain. And yes, I know it could be said that the hope of heaven has no use on earth. But I'd beg to differ...whilst heavily asserting that the hope of heaven and the knowledge of God transforms lives in the present for good.

To those who believe in heaven, do you believe that all humans go there? If some don't, why not?

Madhairday- could you give me an example of why you are certain that God is with us? Why do you think that?

Interesting.

Most people I know are culturally christian - they go to church (even if just match, hatch and dispatch.) They are deeply affronted by atheism. Heaven is assumed - lots of talk about "going to a better place" etc.

I'm happy though. No invisible policeman watching me, I make my own choices. Catholic guilt, while laughed about, is a real, tangible presence, and not confined to the RC - the number of people in NI in hideous, empty shell marriages because of the shame of divorce, or the number of women hiding abuse. Christianity is not a force for good in Northern Ireland. Quite the opposite, it promote, reinforces and continues the divisions. Politicians feel free to make ludicrous religious statements. Misogyny rife and open.

I feel utterly free in a way I could never have been while subscribing to a religion. I make my decisions based on my own morals - and recognise that is what they are. Christianity is based around the idea of there beobjective evil. All nice and black and white. I don't see that. Everything is subjective, there is no morality that is "right." Shades of grey. Find it comforting.

Rambling here!

I really don't understand why anyone is affronted by atheism.

Oh, Seeker, try coming to NI and announcing your athiesm. ("ARe you a catholic athiest or a protestant athiest?")

It affronts people because it introduces the possibility that their nice safe secure belief system might not be that secure. IMHO, of course.

Seeker I could tell many stories, but I am fully aware that you would subscribe them to coincidence or to my nutter-like state. So I am unsure of the value of trying to explain. I guess rather than tell about friends and others I know of who have been transformed in amazing ways it would be more authentic to say that I know God is with me because I hear God's voice everyday - through people, through my children. Through creation, through the bible. Through things that happen that are unexplainable, and things that happen that are normal. And on some occasions just through an impression, a whisper.

You see, it cannot be quantified, can it? There are physical experiences of God's presence. But all describing such would do would be to re-inforce your impression of me as utterly deluded.

That's OK. I'm just aware that sometimes on these threads that people come along and start describing ways they have encountered God or described a healing or something else, in sometimes somewhat preachy ways, which are unhelpful and in my opinion can be counter-productive. So you may think I am being a little stealth like and avoiding the question. I'm not. Honest guv

BobbinRobbin - do you want to know so you can be reassured that christians are indeed ignorant, arrogant and unjust? If you want a good treatise on what some Christians believe about heaven I would heartily recommend this book which asks some excellent and pertinent questions about this issue.

" "ARe you a catholic athiest or a protestant athiest?" "

ha ha, I've been asked exactly that before. Just shows it up for what it is - tribalism, pure and simple. Not much in the way of goodness, tolerance or the overcoming of evil.

If I reacted to christians faces the way some christians react when I say I'm an atheist I'd be very quickly told how arrogant and rude I'm being. Apparently my certainty that there is no god should be kept to myself yet I have to respect the views of the christian who is so certain there is.

The things people say too, not so much here in the UK but I get "You're so closed minded!" quite a lot. Lawrence Ferlinghetti has the perfect response which I have stolen "If you're too open minded you're brains will fall out"

On your hope post madhairday, I know that one day everyone's pain will end, we get cured or we die. I fear dying (mainly because I don't do pain) but I don't fear death, I think I'd have fear if I believed in heaven. Imagine dying not quite sure if you've made the grade. Maybe the muslims were worshiping the right god all along and they're all in their paradise. Maybe I wasn't good enough, maybe I misinterpreted this bible that people can interpret as many ways as there are christians.

From an atheist point of view I find the notion of heaven horrendous, an eternity kissing the arse of the great totalitarian in the sky just sounds unbearable. I have no idea why anyone would find that appealing.

madhairday - thank you for the recommendation.

I guess I just can't see that anyone who believes they are going to a special after-life club - from which some are excluded - can truly be 'Christian' in their thinking (in the popular understanding of the word 'Christian' as good and self-sacrificing I guess).

" I find the notion of heaven horrendous, an eternity kissing the arse of the great totalitarian in the sky just sounds unbearable."

Yy Rational!

Plus, what's the soundtrack like in heaven? Elgar?

And btw if the term 'special exclusive after-life club' sounds over-simplistic, remember than not all Christians are intellectuals. To some who believe they're going to heaven, I'm sure it really IS that simple.

I'm sure it is, Bobbin, but we are all different!

Rational, can I apologise to you on behalf of any Christians who have responded in such a way when you have described yourself as an atheist. It makes me sad, because actually as Christians we should be concentrating on loving others and seeing God's image rather than making intolerant judgements and catsbum faces

One reason I recommended the book is that it turns the whole idea of a 'special club' on its' head. I love the way Rob asks questions and draws out a whole load of very garbled thinking that many Christians have indulged in. I may not agree with all his conclusions but I love his thinking and find it refreshing.

As for fearing heaven - it's not about being good enough though. That's the whole point of the christian faith. That's why I don't subscribe to the whole holier-than-thou thing. It's such a load of tosh. It's all down to grace, and that's also why I believe God is bigger than any human assumptions and believe God's justice will be more just than could possibly be imagined. So I don't worry too much about who will 'pass' the heaven test.

madhairday - yes indeed, all Christians ARE different, as are the myriad interpretations of the meaning of heaven and earth etc... sounds like we're back to where we started

Ah now soundtrack in heaven, there's something I could get passionate about. It'll be Elgar for those who love Elgar, and thrash metal for those who love such things, and X-factor-esque crap for those who love such things For my dad it will be country and western. For some branches of the church it will be organs and choirs

Ah well Bobbin, we need to carry on the grand tradition of these types of threads, which tend to be somewhat circular in nature, so we've achieved something

O it's easy to pass the "heaven test" but incredibly hard to pass the "good enough to be healed" test? What convinces you that god is not as capricious in his entry requirements as he is with his illness fixing?