Religion: bad news for women and gays?

[Alaric]

Does anyone know of a highly religious society where it is good to be gay or female, I'm a bit stumped to think of one.

"Frankly, I don't care if you think I am preachy, rational."

Ok. You're not being very christian to me though

The NT isn't all fluffy either. It's not all lambs and goodness and kindness, it's tiresome hearing how it is.

What does Christian behaviour towards you look like?

Do you think all Christians are pushovers?

I don't think Jesus was. Remember when he swept away the tables in the temple on the Sabbath?

I just want you to talk in a way that I can understand, it's not much to ask. Phrases like "the ways of the flesh" and transforming to the will of God" mean nothing to me. If you truly want me to understand your message you won't do this. If you truly don't care then I'll leave it at that.

When did I say all christians are pushovers? Why do I keep getting the christian with a chip on their shoulder?

Huh?

Women.who choose to participate in organised religion obviously think it is good for them, myself included.

"Huh?"

Again, not helpful.

Rational If you'd like to mention which non-fluffy bits of the NT you mean, I'd be happy to try to discuss them. When people on here start about "the Bible" being full of unpleasantness and how we shouldn't be allowed to "cherry-pick", it usually turns out they are talking about the OT, which I agree is pretty gruesome in places, rather than the NT. But if there are bits of the NT that you'd like to talk about, I'd be happy to give it a go.

Ok,

Matthew 10:
10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 15:
15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Luke:
17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

I really can't be arsed finding more, there's just too many. Looks like Jesus meek and mild is only meek and mild if you're in his team though.

OK Matthew 10:14/15 - he's sending them out to preach to Israel that they need to repent. And he's saying "if they don't, they'll regret it"

21-22 - he's saying that the apostles' brothers and fathers etc are going to hate them. ditto 35-37. If you want to follow him, it's going to cause divisions

15:4 - he's arguing against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who say one thing while doing another

I agree that Jesus in the NT is not the faintest bit "meek and mild", but the things he gets angry about are things like hypocrisy. He certainly doesn't say fluffy "nice" stuff. He says "You've got to totally change the way you think about things, and it's going to cause major ructions" and "I'm here to really stir it up and if you join me then you'll be right in the middle of it when the shit hits the fan"

Well, let's start by quoting the bits of the chapter you left out, and quoting in a more accurate translation, shall we? You really can't accuse Christians of cherry-picking and then do it yourself without being a hypocrite. And I haven't heard any Christians claim that Jesus's message wasn't a difficult one. That's why he was crucified.

Then Jesus summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to cure every disease and every sickness. 2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon, also known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax-collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him.
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: ?Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7As you go, proclaim the good news, ?The kingdom of heaven has come near.? 8Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. You received without payment; give without payment. 9Take no gold, or silver, or copper in your belts, 10no bag for your journey, or two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for labourers deserve their food. 11Whatever town or village you enter, find out who in it is worthy, and stay there until you leave. 12As you enter the house, greet it. 13If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
.....
16 ?See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17Beware of them, for they will hand you over to councils and flog you in their synagogues; 18and you will be dragged before governors and kings because of me, as a testimony to them and the Gentiles. 19When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you at that time; 20for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
....
23When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.24 ?A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above the master; 25it is enough for the disciple to be like the teacher, and the slave like the master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household! 26 ?So have no fear of them; for nothing is covered up that will not be uncovered, and nothing secret that will not become known. 27What I say to you in the dark, tell in the light; and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops. 28Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.* 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground unperceived by your Father. 30And even the hairs of your head are all counted. 31So do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows.
.....
and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. 40 ?Whoever welcomes you welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41Whoever welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet will receive a prophet?s reward; and whoever welcomes a righteous person in the name of a righteous person will receive the reward of the righteous; 42and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple?truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward.?

I wasn't cherry picking, I assumed you'd know the whole story.

I will be back tomorrow, too tired now. Jesus wasn't too tolerant of people of other faiths though was he?

Well, Jesus was a Jew, and Judaism, now and in Jesus's time, is not a converting religion. So he was urging his disciples to tell the good news of the kingdom of God to the people of Israel, not to the gentiles (non-Jews).

On the other hand, Jesus said on several occasions that the neighbours that were despised by the Israelites, the Samaritans, could be more godly than the Pharisees (eg the parable of the good Samaritan).

So I think the picture on whether Jesus was 'tolerant of other religions' is mixed, and maybe the concept of 'religious toleration' is anachronistic. And, of course, he is bringing THE truth -- an absolute truth, not a relative one, not one among many.

One of the biggest tussles of the very early years of the Christian church was whether the disciples should turn towards gentiles (ie non-Jews) or not. The decision to carry the good news to the gentiles had the most profound consequences for the way Christianity developed.

If you're a bit daft or a bit desperate or a bit gullible, it can be comforting to believe that there is an Imaginary Friend who is looking out for you and thinks you're great. And whether you are gay, female, transgender, a convert from another tribe or involved in some kind of special interest group, it is usually possible to find likeminded people who have the same brand of imaginary friend as you: all religions having been made up and refined and variously rebranded by human beings, someone will have usually franchised a version of the myth that will suit an individual.
Of course, it's just as possible to find likeminded individuals with the same brand of imaginary friend if you are a horrible, spiteful bigotted nutjob. In fact, if you have the sort of imaginary friend who you imagine wants you to hate, judge and even kill people who are not like you, it's often easier to find clusters of nutjobs who will agree with you.

On the other hand.

Once you have attained the personal integrity, say, of Dag Hammarskold or Dietrich Bonhoeffer, come back and talk about how it is the daft or desperate or gullible who believe in God, and I'll start to take such adolescent claptrap seriously.

People can have integrity and still be daft, desperate and gullible. Belief in gods is fundamentally ridiculous, really. In decent people it's mostly fairly harmless, of course, but all too frequently people decide that having an imaginary friend means they can attack or interfere with other people, because their imaginary friend says so...

god is not just bad news for women and gays, here's a few more of his creation he doesn't get on with:

Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)

We are all doomed!

Idolaters always gives me a giggle, just think how pissed off he us at Catholics in particular with their crucifixes and relucs and all of them with their crosses and alters, their churches themselves are ornate tributes with images of god and Jesus all over the place. Oops, fail.

Doing well today!

Nah, I still think nutty best describes you (oh, and very fluffy)

"Does anyone know of a highly religious society where it is good to be gay or female, I'm a bit stumped to think of one." Yes, for sure. Women Quakers have been giving ministry in Meeting for Worship since 1652, and helping to run the show pretty much since then. British Quakers in 2009 formally decided to offer religious marriage to same-sex couples (so did Liberal Jews and Unitarians. I believe).

Do you know what? All this talk of various churches new acceptance of women and homosexuals just strikes me as doing a bit of polishing the turd.

It was all nonsense before, it's now still nonsense but nicer to gay people and women, so what!