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Original poster

Is Christ necessary for Christmas?

23 replies

sam139 · 31/12/2011 10:23

Mum told me about this wee article on the phone last night. interesting and challenging I thought. Seems Christmas has gone far away form Christ. any thoughts?

"Marys Dream"
I had a dream Joseph. I don't understand it, not really, but I think it was about a birthday celebration for our Son. I think that was what it was all about. The people had been preparing for it for about six weeks. They had decorated the house and bought elaborate gifts. It was peculiar, though because the presents weren't for our Son. They wrapped them in beautiful paper and tied them with lovely bows and stacked them under a tree. Yes, a tree Joseph, right in their house. They'd decorated the tree also. The branches were full of glowing balls and sparkling ornaments. There was a figure on top of the tree. It looked like an Angel might look. Oh it was beautiful. Everyone was laughing and happy. They were all excited about the gifts. They gave the gifts to each other, Joseph, not to our Son. I don't think they even knew Him. They never mentioned His name. Doesn't it seem odd for people to go to all that trouble to celebrate someone's birthday if they don't know Him. I had the strangest feeling that if our Son had gone to this celebration, He would have been intruding. Everything was so beautiful, Joseph, and everyone so full of cheer, but it made me want to cry. How sad for Jesus not to be wanted at His own birthday celebration. I'm glad it was only a dream. How terrible, Joseph, if it had been real!

OP posts:

nokissymum · 31/12/2011 10:30

Yes Christmas has gone far away from Christ, and if you are a Christian you should celebrate christmas the way you feel is in line with your faith, that's what I do, posting this outdated article (saw this circulating on email more than 5 yrs ago!) is not going to help, and I'm sure you will get loads of replies telling you their own christmas is nothing to do with Christ and it's not by accident the gifts aren't for Him, so you are not really achieving anything.

hocuspontas · 31/12/2011 10:33

What a load of wank.

thejaffacakesareonme · 31/12/2011 11:50

Sam139 - I think that if Christ is important to you then you should make room for him at Christmas.

nokissymum · 31/12/2011 12:39

Yessam139 I agree with you! But the majority of your audience here are not practising Christians infact a lot are atheists so your article will be rather meaningless to them. I think you would generate a more thought provoking response if you targeted a Christian audience, again the article is so old! even then you could still be barking up the wrong Christmas tree.

Hope you had a good Xmas though

JenniferEight · 31/12/2011 12:48

Oh I hate that sort of manipulative evangelism. Sorry. It drives me further from the church than anything else possibly could.

Christmas was originally a pagan or something or other festival that got hijacked by christianity zillions of years ago, apparently, anyway...so I think it's up to the individual how they choose to celebrate it.

JenniferEight · 31/12/2011 12:50

Anyway it;'s a pile of cr*p. I'm sorry. The whole point of God is that things are good, and beautiful and wonderful and people care for each other.

Now THAT gets lost in way too many people's Christmas imo but there's no sign of goodness missing from your 'article' down there. It's all about how lovely it all is.

If people have to actually TALK about God to be doing good things, or being nice to each other or celebrating 'him' then that's a very narrow view of religion anyway and you're welcome to it.

AMumInScotland · 31/12/2011 14:28

What many people celebrate at this time of year is a secular celebration of love and caring and family. They think about their families, or their friends who fulfill the role of family for them, and spend time with them, and try to find time to meet up and share a meal and exchange gifts and messages of goodwill. They think about darkness and light and the turning of the year and the seasons, and hope for the year ahead.

If they did those things more of the year, then we'd be closer to what Jesus taught than we get by having a "birthday celebration" for him - I sincerely doubt that Mary or Jesus would be unhappy about the focus of "Christmas" in the majority of households. Jesus never taught "focus on me" he taught "love your neighbour as yourself" and that's what most people try to do at Christmas.

JenniferEight · 31/12/2011 14:31

EXACTLY. Exactly. The whole MESSAGE of Christianity as far as I can tell is to spread goodwill by your actions. Not go round telling everyone to stop enjoying themselves and talk about Jesus. The whole point of Jesus is that he made it very clear it's NOT ABOUT HIM, it's about loving everyone and being nice.

So this 'article' is really, really not getting it.

reallytired · 31/12/2011 14:41

Christmas is not a major christian festival. It is the pagan Yuletide or roman saturnalia which both pre date Jesus. Christmas was not necessary in Isarel as they do not have long cold nights and foul weather like northen Europe.

I doult the early christians celebrated Christmas, but the early missonaries recongised the need for the ancient Celts to have a party in December.

I expect Jesus would be a bit bemused by Christmas, but would be sympathetic to the needs of European people to have some winter cheer.

reallytired · 31/12/2011 14:41

Easter is the only MAJOR christian festival.

nokissymum · 31/12/2011 16:51

reallytired I know sam's document was never going to win any fans BUT Christmas IS a major Christian festival that's why it's called Christ mas! People keep going on about the old pagan festival which is true it used to be around the same time, but this particular festival was made for Christians and others who so wish to celebrate the birth of Christ, it doesn't matter that there is pre existing festival for pagans.

If people want to celebrate the pagan festival under the title of "Yuletide" ( not sure what the old name was) that's fine but don't tell Christians that Christmas is is not a Christian celebration and nothing to do with Christ because it's everything to do with Him. Just acknowledge that there are 2 different celebrations taking place, the pagan one should not be confused with Christmas.

ginmakesitallok · 31/12/2011 16:54

If Mary is so pissed off about people not buying her son presents at christmas then she only has herself to blame for concieving him when she did - Lord knows there've been enough threads on here from other Mums because their kids birthdays get overlooked because of all the Christmas celebrations....

hermioneweasley · 31/12/2011 16:56

If Christ existed he was born in spring/summer. Christians hijacked existing pagan Yule festivals so there is no need to be Christian to celebrate the middle of winter with a feast and some greenery.

nokissymum · 31/12/2011 17:04

hermione we already know that Christ wasn't born on December 25th, and we know the pagan festival was "hijacked" and why ? Because of Christianity. the point is the pagan festival was not called "Christmas", so celebrate the pagan festival but call it it's original name, no reason why you can't celebrate more than one thing on December 25th is there ?

Christmas is a major celebration to Christians, it's to you that it isn't.

AMumInScotland · 31/12/2011 17:31

nokissymum but the problem is that the Christian church did it's best to stop people from celebrating the pagan midwinter stuff, and would only accept them celebrating "Christmas", so there is no tradition of celebrating pagan midwinter any more. A few dedicated atheists may do it, but to everyone else, "Christmas" simply is the name of this celebration, whether or not they follow Christ, simply because the Christian establishment didn't leave them with much option.

You can't turn round and say "call it something else then" after forbidding them from celebrating "something else" for many generations.

I'm a Christian, and I do celebrate the birth of Christ at this time of year, in amongst the rest of what "Christmas" means to typical British people, but "Christmas" is now two separate things, one of which is the original meaning of the word, and one of which is the original meaning of the date and the reason for needing a celebration in the darkest part of the year.

When places try to celebrate a midwinter holiday without calling it Christmas, people are usually up in arms about that too ("Winterval" anyone?") so there isn't one simple answer.

ChickenLickn · 31/12/2011 17:43

what the hell is the OP on about?

We dont call it "christs birthday" or even "christ's mass",

its "crissmas" now, and is a jolly midwinter festival when families and friends meet for winter cheer.

the op makes mary sound a bit greedy tbh.

nickelhadababyYesLord · 31/12/2011 17:56

hmm.
interesting article.

In our house, we go to Midnight Mass and then go to a 10:30 church service on Christmas day.

So, we put God and Jesus before our own celebrations.

The present and tree part is more to do with the pagan Yule, anyway, and Christians incorporated it to make it easier for pagans to switch. Bits have been added over the years, to make it the commercial nonsense it is today, but everyone gets together with family, and has fun and a holiday, so I'm sure that that's all part of the Christian message.

Those who aren't christian and don't believe in God, let them get on with it.

nokissymum · 31/12/2011 17:57

mumIn Scotland if the church stopped people from celebrating the pagan midwinter stuff, then the reason was obviously because they wanted everyone to be Christian and celebrate Christ not celebrate pagan festivals under the banner of "Christmas". I don't agree with "forcing" a belief on people by the way as it never works, what you get is the sort of "mishmash" we currently have every year.

The reason why people have been up in arms over calling it "winterval" is because it's a change of the existing name and Christians would rather keep it with Christ" in the name as that is what it is about for them.

There is absolutely no reason why "Winterval" or whatever can't be made an official name alongside Christmas. there may be no tradition of celebrating pagan midwinter (and I don't totally agree with either) anymore but clearly there are people who want it, what should happen is to declare two official celebrations, one for Christians and the other one for pagans so there is no more confusion.

What I find ridiculous is someone saying Christmas is not a major Christian festival.

AMumInScotland · 31/12/2011 17:59

Up here in Scotland, actually Christmas was not an official celebration until about the 60s - most people worked on Christmas Day, unless it happened to fall on a weekend. Easter was always the important one, and people celebrated New Year as their midwinter thing.

nokissymum · 31/12/2011 18:04

chicken it's "Christmas" not crissmas. It's a compound name for
"Christ's Mass".

JenniferEight · 31/12/2011 19:00

But the point IS that the OP's message accuses people of 'ignoring' Christ in their 'beautiful celebrations'. Is Christ not in everything that's beautiful? Isn't that where it comes from?

Without Christ there would be no beauty or love. I mean by all means have a go at people who go and shoot dogs for their Christmas celebration, but I am really missing the point of the OP. What are people doing wrong if they are being kind, friendly, loving? How is that not what Jesus is about?

JenniferEight · 31/12/2011 19:02

I should add that I'm not really a Christian.

My mother is, Oh yes. We went round on the 25th and the house was full of posters...'put the Christ back into Christmas' and 'Jesus has come' all over the windows and kitchen.

I could barely stop myself saying as we entered, 'Oh I see Jesus has been, then'. I didn't mean it in a nasty way but the woman is obsessed. I have to take the piss out of her a teeeeeny bit or I would weep.

NeverKnowinglyUnderstood · 31/12/2011 19:10

For ME Christmas is about celebrating the birth of the man I believe to be the son of God. Not the exact date perhaps, but the sentiment behind his birth.

For DH Christmas is about tradition celebration of family and giving of gifts to loved ones. He does not believe in God and therefore the idea of him having a son irrelevant.

We coexist perfectly happily, I enjoy the time of year as much as he does and our children are getting both Mummy and Daddy's opinions and am sure that at some point they will fall on one side of the fence or the other.

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