Doubting my faith

[Andy1964]

My Mother and Father used to take my Brother and I to church every Sunday.
They have always had faith in christianity and we were both christened as babys.
As we got older, they stopped taking us to church and then later in life they started becoming more involved in their faith.
I've never been a great church goer but have always upheld my faith until a few years ago.

I will try to describe this chronologicley

My wifes Auntie developed cancer and fought it for a few years before loosing the battle. She was a lovely woman, her and ger Husband had bought up two lovely children who my wife and I get on really well with.

A few years later I accompanied my wife and our children to a Christingle service at the church were my Mother and Father practice their faith.
We were looking forward to a nice Christmassy service to set the tone for the forthcoming holiday.
However leaving church left me feeling insulted. In par of the service we were asked to 'repent our sins'
I find it hard to comprehend why, at a celebratory service, small children would be asked to repent their sins. Surly they have not done anything bad enough to ask for Gods forgivness.
I also felt that I had not done anything bad enough to ask for Gods forgivness. It was assumed that we were all sinners.

Earlier this year my Mother passed away, cancer again but thankfully not a long struggle. My Mother was a devout christian, very involved in her church, sometimes to the detriment of her family. Her and my Father did many good things for charity.
Since my Mothers passing I have asked for guidance in prayer but I keep on getting things wrong, especially with my Father.

A few months ago my wifes cousin (son of aforementioned Auntie) was diagnosed with bowel cancer, he is 32!

Only last week a friend of my wifes family passed away after a long struggle with illness. Another nice man who had done nothing wrong.

These things, and the fact that my prayers are not being answered are really causing me to seriously doubt my faith.
As I stand over my Mothers grave, all I can think about is what is down there, under the earth.
Why do I think like this?

To start with, I am an atheist, just to get that out there. :)

From what I understand, your faith is something that resides within you, isn't it? Your personal relationship with god. It's not about what a vicar says at church or how they choose to conduct a service. I would imagine that a lot of people would feel comforted by the thought that God was offering them forgiveness. In this respect you didn't 'need' what the church was offering you in the service, but others may have.

You have suffered a lot of loss and the succession of bereavements is bound to cause you to call everything into question. From your posting here I think that you want religion to give you answers and comfort.

I can't get anything from God, myself. he doesn't talk to me. But people help me and comfort me. If you want to reach to God can you talk to someone at church about how you are feeling? Whether or not your faith in god is shaken you can still get comfort in people.

FWIW I don't think that there is anything important under the ground. I don't believe, but I know what is important is the legacy you leave in the hearts of the people left here. You said that the people you have lost were good, kind people. You remember them for that.

This is a tough one, and believe me, its normal to feel like this, and to blame God for it. There isn't any easy answer, and anything I say could sound glib, but its something I've thought about a lot, and also prayed about a lot too. In the end, for me it came down to this.

Firstly there's a bit in the bible where Jesus says "are you leaving me too?" to the apostles, and Peter says "where would we go? you have the message of eternal life".

And with everything I've been through at times, I don't think I could walk away (although I tried - and it only made me feel worse). Secondly, is my belief that I have to trust God to know what is best and to have the bigger picture. Which means that sometimes my prayers don't get answered the way I want or when I want, but there is something better happening that I can't quite see.

You might have heard this before, but it really works for me, that a seed cannot reach its true potential unless it changes and becomes something totally unrecognisable, that it "dies" to what it is, is planted and grows into something new. Sorry if that also sounds glib, but I've really thought hard about this. If it doesn't help, then just disregard it. But keep seeking...

Hi, OP. I'm a Christian, and one who has had all sorts of doubts about my faith this year.

I think I'd sum my ultimate purpose up as trying to love God with all my heart, mind and soul. If I look at it that way, it's quite reasonable to accept that I don't do it perfectly. That's basically what sin is. Sometimes it is intentional, that I'd rather do what makes me happy, but at other times I'm not even aware of it.

It needs a bit of explaining to children, maybe, if they notice it in a service. On the other hand, my dcs understand quite naturally about being naughty, and about putting themselves before their siblings!

I'm finding that I want to read the Bible more while I'm having all these doubts, just to be reminded of my faith and others who have trodden the road ahead of me...

I see god as a patriachial figure, he can give us comfort like family can but cannot prevent us getting ill etc.

the christian view is that it wasn't supposed to be like this. there wasn't supposed to be illness and war and domestic violence and miscarriage. the world was made perfect, but people messed it up, putting themselves first and basically telling god to sod off. everybody is infected with this selfishness, even children which is why they are asked to say sorry for their sins, as the church put it. all children are naughty at some point.

God accepts nothing less than 100% perfection. if you are 99% good, you have still missed the standard required. it is only by someone else paying the penalty that we can be counted as perfect, even though we still mess up. asking for forgiveness and making a determined decision to try and put god first again, even if we fail miserably at it, which we will, can we be counted as perfect in god's sight. it is not something we can achieve for ourselves. that is what the confession at church was trying to say.

I have also had to think long and hard about the unfairness of life. we lost a baby to miscarriage, I have lost a cousin, a family friend and aunts to cancer. mil is no means old and someone who has faith but is dying of cancer. this is likely to be her last christmas and she is too poorly to celebrate. I want to scream that it is not fair, and it isn't fair. sometimes you have faith in spite of it all, even if it is a miserable little seed of a faith as in my case sometimes. and I have been known to shout at god about the unfairness of it all.

I am sorry for your losses. I hope that you can work through the doubts and come to some peace.

I do understand your turmoil - I think anyone who is seriously thinking about God has to grapple with things like this re the unfairness of life.

I would say, though, that if you want to hear what God thinks about what you're going through, ask him. Get real with him - tell him you're struggling, that things aren't fair, that if he is who he says he is, why do bad things happen to good people? Tell him the whole kaboodle - rant if you like (he can take it!). It's a good idea to read the bible and ask him to show you what it means - though take it easy, try not to sweat it. also talk to other christians - as you are on here, but RL people too. choose carefully who you talk to, see them in action first.

You are bereaved and it is very hard to think straight when you are bereaved. The pain is immense. You wonder why someone so good and fair was taken in a horrible way. Though bereavement is a legit and achingly human space, one which, as it happens, is very close to God's heart. I have had a very painful life and it is a great comfort to me that God knows all about pain: Jesus is described as a man of sorrows, aquainted with grief.

As for sin - yes, that's a thorny one. The word 'sin' is so heavily laden isn't it? Dripping with guilt and disgustingness. I agree that people bandy the S word around a lot without even attempting to explain what it means. It's all a bit jargony, I find. To me, 'sin' actually means separated from God, not in relationship with God - just a fact. I believe we are born in that state, it is the natural human condition. God's total being is entirely about love, and it is pretty obvious we aren't the same: though we can and do love, we aren't entirely devoted to love, as he is.

imo God isn't shocked that we are separated from him - he kind of knows all about it tbf. There is a wide spectrum of what people do with the state of being separated from God, of not being in relationship with him: some people are good and very good, some are bad and very bad; the majority bumble along in the middle, wanting to generally be decent folk. All of that - good, bad, middling - doesn't win or lose points with God one way or the other - the only thing that is capable of mending the separation with God is Jesus, who literally paid the price to mend the broken relationship; to facilitate a full and proper relationship, not a po-faced, rulesy, fusty, guilty 'relationship' but a love-filled, loving, natural relationship, free and open (nothing hidden).

Which means when you are angry, either with God or life, or confused, hurt, doubting etc, you can say so - to God. It's a relationship he has very clearly stated he wants and has gone to extravagant lengths to facilitate.

imo, wherever you are at - whether doubting, unable or unwilling to accept Jesus as the bridge, you can still be straight with God, chew the cud, bash it out with him; ask him for help, show him your broken and confused heart. Etc. though I would say don't take the piss - but I don't think you're in that space tbh. And I would also say, check it out with the bible: read it and ask God what he means by it (or the bit you're reading - you don't have to read vast chunks).

woh! that was long! sorry

Only you can decide whether you believe in a god or not. And it's perfectly OK not to. Lots of people are free from religion and live happy, productive lives.

Long, maybe, daffs, but full of wisdom - loved reading through that, thank you!

aw. Thank you wellies.

Can I just say OP, while I'm at it, that the Psalms are brilliant for when you're feeling really crap.

Wow, thanks everyone for the words of wisdom and taking the time out to reply.
TBH after reading through some of the replies it is making a bit more sense to me, at least the sinning thing is anyway.
I guess that would make most religious people sinners.
I have to say though that I think sin is the wrong word, it's so evocotive (sp?) But I get it.
Seems a bit anal to me but I get it.

Can I be a 'pretend' christian? I dunno, I'm happy to accept God and Jesus into my life but on my terms, not the churches.
Why?
I don't like going to church, I don't like being told that I MUST do this, I MUST do that, I MUST repent this, I MUST sing that, I MUST pray along with this prayer.
Why can't I do it on my terms, Is God reasonable enough to accept that?
I guess time will tell.
Maybe it will make me more of a sinner and I wil have to ask for forgivness more often.

Inside I feel as if I should have faith

Sorry, I'm rambling on

I will post back when I have something more readable to post

Totally get where you are coming from about Church telling you to do things. Some churches are very like this,but not all.
See if you can find a church near you that has cafe church or messy church, it may have a different name, ours is called Feast.
It's far more like going into Starbucks (but free) you don't get told what todo and can come and go as you like.
You could also contact your local vicar or church leader to talk through your feelings, have a look at Achruchnearme on google or New Wine website has a church finding section.
You are not alone

Ps
God loves us no matter what

Hi OP. Just to give you my credentials: Raised a Catholic, was devout for many years of my life. Now an atheist, but still very sympathetic to and interested in the religious point of view. I put aside my faith when I was diagnosed with clinical depression. At that point in my life, for the first time I felt that prayer wasn't helpful to me, and instead I found that medication was, which made me feel that a lot of what I had felt was 'faith' and 'talking to God' was actually chemical impulses inside my head. I hope you don't find that offensive, that's just my story.

My take on your position is that there is a big difference between faith and organised religion. Don't forget that organised religion is humankind's interpretation of the relationship with God, and as such, is prone to fallibility. Hence why all the major denominations of Christianity have gone through various changes and moderations of doctrine. The Russian writer Leo Tolstoy (who wrote War and Peace) was very interested in this line of thought and basically distilled it all down to deducing his own principles from the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament - no other parts of the Bible, not even St Paul and other New Testament epistles, as again these were mortal humans interpreting the word of God - and indeed so as to avoid the contamination of translation, he even taught himself Ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic so as to access ever earlier versions of the Gospels!! That's all a bit by the by, but basically I'm trying to say you can have faith without needing to follow the doctrines of a particular religion.

I'd like to hear more, however, about why you say you feel as if you should have faith. Do you mean you feel you ought to? why? because your parents said so?

Finally, to comment on your feelings of prayer not being answered, and wondering why perfectly good people around you seem to be dying of cancer: well, firstly, if there is a God, he made us human with fallible bodies. Even when I was a believer, I never subscribed to the notion that God's (or the Devil's) intervention in the world was as direct and tangible as inflicting disease on people for a known or unknown reason. For the same reason, I never believed that prayer was as direct or transactional as asking God for things and getting them, for me it was only ever more about having mental communion with a presence. I think it is easy to relate to religion in this very specific and human, transactional way, but it only leads to unanswerable questions.

I hope some of that is helpful to you!

I agree with fluffyanimal - organised religion is a very different thing to having faith.

Your faith is a personal thing and there is nothing stopping you from observing that faith in any way that makes sense to you and that feels right for you. If going to church doesn't work for you then that's ok. An omnipresent God doesn't just hang around in churches and cathedrals after all.

What is important is your own personal relationship with God and how you try to conduct your life. Any truly loving God will see what is in your heart.

Hi Andy, I can well understand you interpretaing 'faith' as 'organised religion' and wanting none of it.
We are all so utterly human and so bound to get it wrong. So however hard we try we are bound to stand on each others' toes, the closer you get in affection and friendship, the more likely it is that you are going to hurt one another too. In a way I do find this reassuring, because I am very aware that I'm not perfect either. So I can feel quite grateful to any church that will 'have me' and will let me loose to try and do my best and get it wrong (frequently).
I wonder if you would find a book like Stephen Gaukroger's It makes sense helpful. It sets out quite clearly what a Christian believes, deals with the subject of 'sin' and why belonging to a local church may be helpful.

I also don't like being told what to do Andy. As fluffy says, religious practice is a form of religious observance so as to tick off all the boxes - for our benefit (not to assuage religious rules). eg the only 'form' I can think of that I apply regularly is the Lord's prayer. I guess because it comes on good authority and it is a good structure for me to get all the things in that I want to pray about. Tbh I didn't plan to use it, I just noticed that all the categories I wanted to pray about fit very well into that template. I find the reciting it in a church service thing a bit weird tbh (especially as it is often recited at breakneck dull as dishwater speed) the words don't necessarily have any power in themselves (imo) or it would be like sending a table to your work colleagues that wasn't filled in. I suppose I 'fill in the table' - the Lord's prayer - when I'm doing a concentrated bit of praying (which isn't the same as ad hoc on the fly praying/talking to God). It works for me anyway.

As for most religious people being sinners - oh my, all are! That's the whole point of the gospel, that it's only God/Jesus who isn't, everybody else is. Big deal iyswim - God knows about it and has provided the answer to it, the way through it to get to him and enjoy a real relationship with him. Which is pretty good of him, if you think about it.

I've been shot by religious people for saying this, but God can be quite ordinary in a lot of ways. Quite workaday iyswim. It's not as if he doesn't know exactly what we're about, what we want, what makes us tick. If you have problems with religion then join the queue. Jesus did, so you're in good company.

Don't let church tell you what to do, but don't just pick out your own way, either. The best guide for life is God, and he's given plenty of advice and instruction in the Bible. It's not rules, but the more of it you read, the more you understand of God - and then you can act based on what will please God, and of course his Spirit helps us do that.

Some churches seem to require a lot of conforming to patterns of worship and the like, and others are quite free and easy. Don't be intimidated by appearances in any case, as things are not always what they seem. If I want to sit when others stand, I do, or stay quiet when others are singing, - nobody ever bats an eyelid. But if a particular form of worship gets your back up, maybe you could try a different denomination?

I feel as if I should have, or maybe follow the Christian faith because my Mum and Dad always did/do.
Dad is still very involved in the local church.
I guess it is the way I was bought up although I would not say it was shoved down my thoat.
I also guess I feel a little bit guilty too.
I feel bad about being agnostic or athiest.

Maybe I could try a different denomination, maybe I should try a different faith?

I will ponder this for ages but for now I'm off to google bhuddism :)

Andy - I'm sorry you're having such a tough time and we're left wondering why good people have been taken from us or such dreadful things happen.
You may be interested in googling the Quakers - as with them you can just sit in silence and wait to see what happens! They welcome families and many meetings have kids groups.

Geoffrey Durham (former husband of Victoria Wood) has written a really interesting / accessible book about the Quakers called "Being a Quaker".
Re: Buddhism - have a look at the BBC Religions definition as that gives a good overview. Also the Tricycle Buddhist Review website is really good and their magazine (paper or online) is excellent).
Hope you enjoy your journey.
WW