line between culture and Religion - any expereince/tips/ideas on where that lies?

[elephantsgomarching]

Me and DP are now expecting our first DC with the shit that goes on with my family it has got us talking about religion etc.

I'm Pakistani-british while DP isn't pakistani or muslim.

I have a very complex relationhip with my faith (based on how I was raised and families actions) but the main bits Allah, Muhammad (SAAW) I do believe in, it is just the rest.....(or at least the rest as I was raised to believe)

DP is athiest - and would struggle with raising his childrens in a religion (and from my experiences I think so would I)

So we were talking about the line between culture and religion.

Circumcision (if a boy)?
Arabic lessons?
Ramadan? all the Eids?
Stories from Qur'an?

anyone got anyexpereince? - Either in Islam or actually any religion were you and partner differ

It's quite simple, if its from Quran and sunnah then the consensus would be it is from religion, things such as khatams, mehndis, beliefs that Muhammad sas is made from Noor, mawlid etc which have Jo basis in quran and sunnah are bidah.

A lot of things which are culturally acceptable, such as forced marriage, fgm, living in the same house and sharing kitchen and bathroom with bil, are religiously condemned.
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Tbh the points you mentioned are personal between you and your Dh, you may have to approach it from the view of mummy believes this but daddy believes this, you have to make up your own mind.

If you are celebrating Xmas, I can't
see the issue with also explaining and celebrating eid? And explaining about ramadhan so when he is old enough he can make his decision.

Also if he enjoys learning Arabic it is good to be exposed to another language.

The most important thing is will you teach him to pray?

I don't even pray - I really struggle with it (I have come to hate parts of islam that my family used against me, and constant praying was a part of my childhood)
So I couldn't in my right mind teach my DC(s) to pray when it is something still to this day I can not bring myself to do (again)

sis, i think maybe you need to work on seperating the methods used to oppress you from the actual abuse?

i dont know if that makes sense, i mean, seperate the act of praying etc and seeing the good in it, from the emotions of being abused and oppressed.

If you do decide to teach your dc about Islam, ramadhan etc and send him/her to madressa, then praying will ineveitably come up, as it is obviously a major part of Islam, and you need to be able in a place where you can rationally help, and advise without your personal traumas affecting your judgement.

Do you want to offload about your family? having a child must bring back memories of your own childhood?

Maybe read about Islam, once you start reading it will be pretty clear what is culture and what is religion. If you read and discover yourself you'll be able to distinguish between the two. Plus the added benefit from doing this if ever anyone ever questions why you aren't doing something (as all Pakistanis generally love to) you'll be able to quote with confidence why you are/n't following x.

I guess you need to decide whether you want your new DC to be 'culturally' aware of muslims and be able to 'associate' with Pakistanis with ease, or you want him/her to be an actual muslim or you want him/her to choose.

I'm coming to this from the opposite perspective: I'm the atheist in my family, my DH is a muslim (albeit not exactly practising - but he remains convinced of the basic tenets of Islam, the authenticity of the quran, authority of the ahadith etc.). We are currently TTC our first. I'm hoping my thoughts on the issue may help.

From my perspective, I have absolutely no objections to us as a family celebrating eid - my family celebrate christmas and I intend to continue doing so in spite of religious connotations. I also don't have issues with DH teaching our children some stories from the quran and generally exploring and discussing his beliefs with them. Again, I intend to do the same thing with my beliefs. My basic approach is of the "some people believe" variety with the added reminder that "you are always allowed to ask questions and make up your own mind".

I suppose from a religion vs culture perspective, you could probably argue that what is mentioned in the quran and the teachings of those ahadith viewed as authentic would qualify as the "religious" bits according to mainstream orthodoxy.

In the context of my own atheist/muslim parent family-to-be, I have a few reservations about some of that. In particular, I have serious issues with the issue of hell and the fate of non-believers in the quran. I absolutely do not want my to be children taught as truth that mum, grandma and granddad are going to have to spend eternity being tortured. I'm also not a big fan of many of the ahadith (and for the record: I've read good chunks of both Bukhari and Muslim).

DH knows this, of course (and in some amazing feat of cognitive dissonance refuses to believe the hell bit) and I trust him to treat these kinds of issues with the necessary sensitivity. On the other hand, I would not be happy at all for some religious teacher whose attitudes I don't fully know to teach my children about Islam in a madrassah setting.

As far as circumcision is concerned: Sorry, but I think it's wrong to cut off a child's forsekin on the basis of what you believe (and your child may or may not believe later in life)! Or, religiously speaking: AFAIK it's based entirely on hadiths and not actually viewed as compulsory by all schools of islamic jurispudence (i.e. a matter of interpretation); some people also argue that the quran's prohibition of body modification should cover this as well.

I suppose the ultimate question is: what (if you have any preferences at all) do you want your children to believe? And of course: what does your DP think?

FWIW, if my children end up believing in Islam because they have considered the matter carefully and decided it's the most rational position on the basis of the available evidence, I'll be happy for them to disagree with me. Just as I'd be unhappy for them to turn into atheists for no good reason (i.e. because it's what I think is right).

PS: No, I don't mean to say that I'm an authority on islamic jurisprudence. My comments re. circumcision were meant to reflect that

a) it's wrong and
b) if you need to convince yourself that god agrees, there are possible ways of doing so.

MrsSnow I have read - and I have contact with the Pakistani community -outside of my Brother and someone who helped me- at all so no one would ever question my choices.
NotADudeExactly I only mentioned Circumcision as a gage of where other people draw the line. Personally I have no problem with it but in mine and DPs situation it wouldn't happen (DP would be okay with it if I wanted to but that would be forcing something on DC -religiony wise - something I am not prepared to do)

Though I would want DCs to know arabic and stories from quran certain thing they would learn at madrasah I would have an issues with (mainly that me and DP having a relationship is wrong on two counts and about other attitudes)

nailak thanks for the offer but I don't like talking about my childhood - not even DP knows what happened in full and somethings that went on.

elephant - I presume you mean no contact. If that is the case ie no contact with pakistanis so that no one would question your choices - why does it matter? Surely you are content with the choices you have regardless of the implications so really it doesn't matter.

With regard to what to do, maybe teach your child arabic when it is old enough, teach him/her stories and then leave it in the hands of God/or personal choice?

Yeah - sorry - no contact with any pakistani community bar the 2 people mentioned.
Because Snow even though it is irrational I am terrified of being my parents or someone from my family in a world were religion was used to oppress and abuse me and meant I grew up in an environment of abuse. Fuck I still struggle with my belief in Allah. I want them to know about my/their pakistani heritage but beyond that - I just worry that even a simple thing would be like my parents.

elephant - I think everyone who has been through a traumatic experience related to parents is inherently afraid that they will parent the way that their parents parented them. Thats natural.

I think given time and self belief you'll trust your instincts and know that you won't turn into your parents. Ultimately you are your own person. You make your decisions and choices. Your child will have you and your DH as parents, not its gparents as parents. Trust yourself.

I know that is right snow but it still terrifies me to death and while i am my own person i am made from them, i must be like them somhow and if that leaks into my choices as a parent.... - and DC wont have my parents as grandparents.

elephants it's understandable that you have these fears. But I really believe that being aware of something allows you to deal with it much more reasonably.

In German we say "Einsicht ist der erste Schritt zur Besserung". Understanding is the first step towards improvement.

You sound as though you have given a lot of thought to what went wrong during your childhood. You recognize the things your parents did that made your life hell; therefore you can avoid them.

Would it maybe help you to have some kind of a checklist for yourself? Some behaviours that you can define as markers so that if you catch yourself in one of them you can say to yourself: "Stop right there and examine your actions before you go on!"

Not sure if this is helful to you - it did help me overcome some of the issues I struggled with.

Hi elephants and congrats on the pregnancy. My dh is british born pakistani and we are both muslim, but I really do understand what you mean about the line between Islam and culture, in my experience it can be pretty blurry! I have frequent friendly arguments with my MIL, as I only follow the religious side and aren't all that bothered by the culture side.

I think in your circumstances I would take it each age and stage at a time and not panic too much about the future. Try and take the positives and implement those in your childs life.

So you could explain the importance of sadaqa and show your child how it is important to share what you have with others. If you wanted to you could teach him/her how to pray, without ever forcing them to do so.

I totally understand why you are worried about sending your child to madressa,but I wouldnt worry about that too much yet. If you wanted him/her to learn arabic you could always find a tutor to teach them.