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Philosophy/religion

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To wonder why, when Islam is such a peaceful religion, is there so much oppression of women in the Middle East?

72 replies

Joogle · 23/07/2011 17:35

I know this may be ignorant but I would like to lear more about it. It seems there is so much oppression of women in Middle Eastern and African Muslim countries from women not being allowed out in public uncovered and domestic violence through to FGM and stoning.

Is this more to do with culture than religion?

OP posts:
somethingwitty82 · 24/07/2011 11:59

GothAnneGeddes

You may wish it to be but it is not. It is a book written long time ago and selectively edited to justify the desires of murderous empire builders. It is not all cupcakes and rainbows.

Adherents to Islam seem to take a more literal stance and don't ignore as much of their religious text as other large religions.

neolara · 24/07/2011 12:42

Can I ask a few questions without being shouted at please? This thread seems to have got a bit heated. I am genuinely interested but ignorant.

I understand that some people on this thread have said that Islam is not "anti-women" it is simply the culture of some countries where Islam is practised which adopts customs which would be considered by many in the west as unfair towards women e.g. women needing to be covered, women not being allowed to drive, some raped women being treated as adulterers under sharia law etc. Could you explain the distinction you make between culture and religion? I can see in the UK there is obviously a difference between our day to day culture and religion because we are largely a secular country. But in countries where government and a legal system is largely defined by religion (Islam), what is the distinction? Or have I just misunderstood, and governments / legal systems are not based on Islam?

Also, as someone earlier posted, there are clearly parts of the Koran which taken as quotes could be seen as "anti-women". Now I'm sure that quotes could be found in most key texts from almost all religions that would be deeply offensive towards women / different races / homosexuals etc. So I guess I'm wondering if the important thing is not what is written in the key books (Koran, bible etc), but what is currently being preached by religious leaders and what effect that has among "believers". So, for example, catholics are told that birth control is a sin, but I suspect the vast majority of Catholics continue to use contraceptives and so largely ignore the church's teaching in this matter. So what message about the role of women is given by religious leaders within Islam and how closely do you think this is followed? And is this different depending on where you live? So do you get a different message about the role of women in the UK from what you would get in Saudi Arabia or Turkey for example? And if you do get a different message, which is the "true Islamic" message? Or is all religion so affected by culture that it is impossible to separate, which I suppose takes me back to my starting point.

nailak · 24/07/2011 13:12

op for the same reason the patriachy oppress women everywhere else?

for the comments about jew hating etc watch the bbc2 doc, it explains it well, the verses about warfare dont say let yourself get murdered but say fight and defend yourself, and are talking about specific groups of people.

neolara, your questions sound genuine.
women being covered is part of islam, islam takes a stance that starts with the community not solely with individuals. so what is harmful and/or a temptation in the community should be limited, it is harder to maintain chaste thoughts and actions, easier to commit adultery etc in a state where there is free mixing between men and women, so in order to limit this harm to society the society is restricted in certain ways.
women used to drive camels and horses in the prophets time, even saudi wont [retend this law is part of shariah.
under shariah law rape is not adultery, but as in the rest of the world rape victims are often looked down upon and there sexual history questioned and disbelieved. even for adultery to be proven you need four witnesses to the act and if there is no four witnesses and the women swears by Allah that she did not do it that is enough to prove her innoccence.
culture and religion are integrated in many places and many people accept parts of culture as part of their religion, what we are experiencing now is people, looking in to their religion and realising that what they have been brought up thinking is religion is not neccessarily true.

culture is what you eat, what you wear, the language you speak, etc, some muslims would say the culture should be islam as your attitudes to education child rearing etc are in islam, but i would say that there is a huge room for culture in islam, obviously islam is a way of life and in business dealings, day to day interactions muslims should remember islam and act morally.

personally my culture is british, i dont see how it could be anything else, i watched the same formative childhood tv programmes, went through same education system, luive in the same society etc etc.

governments pick and choose what comes from islam and what doesnt, thats why you have these places in the middle east and uprisings, for example the islamic party the muslim brotherhood was oppressed banned and members tortured for many years in egypt, which you would think of as an islamic country. what happens is in oprder to gain public upport in a muslim majority country governments implement buts and pieces of islam, but the thing is this is not really workable.

for example the punishment for theft in some cases is to cut of a hand, in an islamic state this would be in the situation where noone is left starving or in need, there is equal distribution of wealth etc etc, and therefore anyone who steals does it for malice not for need. this is different to the muslim majority states we see today.

today we are in a situation were many sheykhs and islamic institutions are puppets of corrupt governments and there wages paidby them so we see fatwas about anything, with huge variations. you can go fatwa shopping to find a ruling that suits your own desires.

LDNmummy · 24/07/2011 14:06

"I'm an atheist so defending Islam by saying Christians abuse children is no defence. I could spend all day telling you what is wrong with Christianity. The bible condones the murder and abuse of children,

But notice what the general defence is. 'Islam does no wrong. If it does wrong it is not Islam.'

That's what the Catholics said when we told them they had to stop abusing children.

But we should stop discussing this now cos LDNmummy has family in the middle east so she has the final word on Islam.

onagar

I was not defending Islam, I actually do not practice ANY faith because I find them ALL hypocritical and the cause of many of humanity's problems, so why would I defend one over another? What I was saying is that you can find fault in all faiths major faiths and using the child abuse scandals as an example.

I think Islam does not do wrong, but the human beings who choose to interpret it to reinforce their own agenda's to do wrong, do wrong. How can a text 'do wrong' in itself? That makes no sense. A gun does not kill a person, the person who uses it to commit murder does. I believe all religions are used in this way to persecute others.

AND WHERE DID I SAY WE SHOULD STOP DISCUSSING THIS BECAUSE I HAVE MIDDLE EASTERN FAMILY??

WHAT I SAID WAS THIS: "Onagar my family is from the Middle East and they don't practice Islam in the way you are referring to either.

How many people from the Middle East do you actually know?"

WHERE IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT DO I SAY WE SHOULD NOT DISCUSS ISLAM BECAUSE MY FAMILY IS MIDDLE EASTERN EXACTLY? OR THAT BECAUSE MY FAMILY ARE MIDDLE EASTERN, I HAVE THE FINAL WORD ON ISLAM??

AND PLEASE ACTUALLY ANSWER THE QUESTION.

GothAnneGeddes · 24/07/2011 16:13

Somethingwitty - you don't know what you are talking about.

If anyone has any genuine questions, I advise starting a thread in the religion section. For me, I really don't need to deal with bigots.

somethingwitty82 · 24/07/2011 16:18

Islam is different to most religions in that the Koran is the verbatim WORD OF GOD, so it is not wrong,it is perfect and inimitable in message, language, style, and form, any muslim who fails to live by it is clearly not a true muslim, so says god.

Verse 4:34 of the Qur'an as translated by Ali Quli Qara'i reads:

Men are the managers of women, because of the advantage Allah has granted some of them over others, and by virtue of their spending out of their wealth. So righteous women are obedient, care-taking in the absence [of their husbands] of what Allah has enjoined [them] to guard. As for those [wives] whose misconduct you fear, [first] advise them, and [if ineffective] keep away from them in the bed, and [as the last resort] beat them. Then if they obey you, do not seek any course [of action] against them. Indeed Allah is all-exalted, all-great.

It is fact very old fashioned and clearly in need of a reboot, I propose Gerard Butler as big MO in the film, because he rocks a beard

MargotQuaker · 31/07/2011 17:40

As I understand it, believing Muslims don't get just the Q'ran, but a narrative of the circumstances in which each revelation was made. For example, it is said that the revelation about needing four eye witnesses to prove adultery was given to Mohammad following a battle. His young wife had got left behind in the confusion and was brought home after several days by an equally young man. There were huge amounts of gossip... and then the revelation that one should not charge someone with adultery unless one really knew what one was talking about.

Islam is about 600 years younger as a religion than Christianity. 600 years ago Christianity was being appallingly anti-female too.

DioneTheDiabolist · 31/07/2011 23:34

Joogle, I would say that poor treatment of women is more cultural than Islamic. We in western democracies forget that it treating women appallingly has only just changed.

100 years ago women couldn't vote in the UK and were treated a chattel of their fathers and husbands. Sexually active women were put into asylums. And domestic violence was common and not even considered a crime. Runaway women were routinely returned to their places of torture by the police. This was the case right up until the 60s/70s.

I think sometimes we forget how lucky we are to be alive here in this time in history and how hard our foremothers had to fight for our rights.

JohannaM · 06/08/2011 14:09

All three Middle Eastern monotheistic religions take a patriarchal view towards women because those religions arose in patriarchal societies. Also remember that Christianity and Islam derive from Judaism. Hence the more barbaric and oppressive attitudes in Sharia Law hark straight back to the endorsed violence contained in Exodus and Leviticus.

I would dearly love to know the origins of the various taboos about hair. The ancient Semites seemed to be almost obsessed with it and its potential magical/sexual properties. Even today the more observant/orthodox Jews and Muslims women keep their hair covered - only their husbands are allowed to see it!

What is it with hair? Smile

Kewcumber · 06/08/2011 14:12

"We may hear of serious opression of women in Islam, but there are also a lot of Islamic countries where women are treated pretty much the same way they are in the UK."
Which Islamic countries are these LDNmummy?

Kazakhstan is one.

Kewcumber · 06/08/2011 14:16

Its for the same reason that women were oppressed in the UK until after the first world war (and to a lesser extent afterwards).

No right to vote regardless of whether you paid taxes, you became in effect owned by your father and then your husband and it was rare for women to be truly independent unless they were older widows.

And it was because men had the power and the money and liked the status quo. Would have been interesting to know if women would have actually got the vote were it not for the first world war.

And if you lived them you could very easily have blamed the inequality and oppression on the Church of England because they were a party to it. But it was just ordinary run of the mill men who caused it - not religion.

SardineQueen · 06/08/2011 14:19

Hair also covered in some christian sects. Or not allowed to cut it. Or both. Also instances of men having to cover hair, not being allowed to cut it, not being allowed to shave and so on.

Yes what is it with hair? I would love to know too!

JohannaM · 06/08/2011 14:30

Kewcumber: Not forgetting that Afghanistan USED to be one too! Before the fanatics were armed and backed by the USA!

Kewcumber · 06/08/2011 14:38

Johanna - convenient for us to forget that isn't it! Thankfully Kazakhstan seems to be managing to run a secular islamic state reasonably well.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/08/2011 02:41

It's not just Judeo/Islamic/Christian religions that oppress women. It happens nearly all world religions. And I only say nearly because although, I know no praticed religion where women have dominance in society, I will concede that there may be one I don't know about.

SardineQueen · 07/08/2011 13:57

Are there any which are equal though?

It does not need to be one dominant over another IYSWIM

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/08/2011 22:44

I can't think of any Sardine, gender equality (if it existed) probably disappeared with the agricultural revolution. Organised religion came later and simply reinforced the status quo. It is only recently that things have started to change.

SardineQueen · 07/08/2011 23:01

What about Buddhism?

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/08/2011 23:25

Buddhism was no different. Originally the Buddha did not want women in the religion at all and nuns were always subservient to monks. Buddhist countries aren't great when it comes to gender equality either.

SardineQueen · 08/08/2011 11:17

That's a shame. So none then I guess.

DioneTheDiabolist · 08/08/2011 14:00

None. But that's just the point. Relgions are reflections of the society in which they originated. Male dominance came first. Religion came after that. Oppression of women was cultural and pretty global (still is), not down to Islam or any other religion.

GossipWitch · 08/09/2011 10:31

Paganism is a religion which believes in equality for both men and women, however there are more female Pagans than male, I believe. But then with Paganism being oppressed by other religions its not so widely known.

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