an a bit confused about the crucifixtion

[griphook]

Hi

Not been in this part of mumsnet before but I have a questions that may sound silly but i'm honestly not being confrontational. so here goes. sorry if it sounds a bit mixed up

so Jesus died and rose again for us to atone for our sins. (is that right?) so what would of happened if he hadn't die for us?

not sure i'm putting the question very well, but I suppose i'm asking what was the point of god sending his son and then him dying?

Are you a believer in this or are you asking a historical question?

Christian teaching says that Jesus died as a form of sacrifice to atone for humanity's sins - up till that time, Jewish people had regularly made sacrifices in "payment" for their sins, but they kept on sinning (because people are not perfect) and so they had to keep on making sacrifices.

According to Christian teaching, those sacrifices could only ever be partial and temporary, so to change that God sent Jesus to be fully human but sinless, and His death was a sacrifice which was so much "better" than the other kind that it atoned for all of the sins of humanity from then onwards, so no more sacrifices would be needed.

And because Jesus was sinless, and the incarnation of God, He went "through" death and was resurrected and went back to be with God.

Does that help any? If you are interested in understandign this sort of stuff, you could look at whether your local churches are doing any "exploring Christianity" courses, which would give you an introduction to what Christians teach.

If Jesus hadn't substituted himself for us, we would not be able to have a full and right relationship with God.

On another tack... DS (6.5) has suggested that instead of swatting moths (we have had loads recently), we crucify them.

There's also the aspect of Jesus defeating death on the cross and through his resurrection. There's a verse that says 'Death has lost its sting' through what Christ has done. So he has reconciled us to God, and defeated death, so we can have sure hope. Would second what AMIS said about exploring local groups that have courses on exploring Christianity :)

God made the world and people to be perfect so God and people could be together. somewhere along the line people wanted to be like God and thought they knew best. They did something he told them not to, as a result people could no longer be with God because only people who have never done anything wrong can be with God. If someone who has done something wrrong comes near God they will die. that is why no-one was allowed in the middle part of the Jewish temple. Only one man the high (boss) priest was allowed in once every year. Animals had to be killed instead of the priest dying when he got near God.

killing the animals only really covered up the wrong. to take it away someone had to die. it should be the people who did the bad things, us, who have to die, but instead God sent his Son Jesus to die instead. He paid for the things everyone has done wrong, going back to the beginning of people as well as to the end of history.

to show that people could now be near God again, the curtain in the temple that kept people out of the middle bit was ripped open by God at the same time that Jesus died. people who choose to believe the Easter story, who say sorry to God for the wrong things they have done and ask him to be boss in their lives can have a friendship with God. when they die they will be with him. those people who choose not to believe and ignore God, do not get to live with him when they die.

Of course someone might wonder (given that this was god's rule and he could make any rule he liked) why he didn't declare that Jesus had to do something a lot nicer than die in order to make it okay again. God has a completely free choice there and could have said that Jesus had to fast for 3 days or something.

It also means that had the people of the time decided not to crucify jesus the plan would have been ruined. Therefore god had to ensure they went through with it.

Often wondered why that rule is there too...

I've been pondering this one a lot recently (as a Christian). On thing, Griphook - as you may have noticed, there's not one single answer to your question! Different people interpret the death of Jesus in different ways, and have different ideas of what sin is and how God deals with it.

AMIS - your answer is soooo Book of Hebrews, which I absolutely love. Love it, love it, love it.

I am thinking more and more along the lines of defining sin as violence - when we sin, we do / say / think violent things that damage ourselves / others / our world. And we can't stop ourselve from saying / thinking / doing these things, however much we hate them, because we are human and part of a competitive ecosystem in which each living thing has to fight for survival, at the expense of the other (plants compete for soil's nutrients, animals for food, humans for significance / affection / money etc).

So Jesus' death, as both fully God and fully human, was a voluntary act of non-violence, laying down of rights and submitting to one of the most horrifically violent deaths the world had yet devised. One of the Old Testament passages which has been used since very early Christianity to talk about Jesus' death says that he was 'like a lamb before the slaughter'. And the resurrection is the overcoming of the the violence of the world's system and the triumph of God's love that heals all damage and violence, and enables us to be changed (to repent) and through the Spirit of God be made into those who can work and live for peace and truly live for others rather than being condemed to compete against them.

That's how I see it anyway. There's so much richness and mystery in the death and rising of Jesus, I'm not sure we'll ever get to the bottom of it.

Love the way you write things Clockface :)

I agree, and also there's the whole defeating death thing. If Jesus hadn't died and risen, death would still stand, still be stronger, but because he did this, death lost its power. The seriousness of sin means death - natural result, as the human race, of rebellion against God - but Jesus overcame death by dying - and being raised. He couldn't have done that by fasting, or whatever else. God had to do the most extreme, to beat the most extreme. Or, as Paul says, of what point would our faith be?