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Original poster

AIBU to think that if some Cristians won't do yoga because it might damage their faith....

82 replies

seeker · 19/04/2011 07:03

...they can't simultaneously say that making children to pray to a Christian god in school won't have any influence on their inner lives?

Sorry that this is a thread about a thread by the way, but I didn't want to derail the one where the yoga teacher is asking for information.

OP posts:
fluffles · 19/04/2011 09:17

children are definitely affected by the religion they are brought up in, i was brought up catholic and looking back i think i knew from about age 10 (certainly before confirmation) that i was really an atheist but i didn't know how to express that or that it was an option so i spent my secondary school years feeling guilty that i didn't have any 'faith' and then university years identifying as a 'lapsed catholic' which has a ring of failure about it. it was only when i reached my early 20s that i was able to say definitively that i am atheist, i have no faith, i do not believe in god or life after death, however this does not make me a bad person or 'taken in by the devil' i am a good person, who is good to other people and not materialistic, i believe in simple pleasures (sunshine, wind, nature, family, love, laughter). the christian anti-atheist rhetoric is powerful and it takes a lot of strength to overcome that kind of conditioning which is so all pervasive in schools.

exoticfruits · 19/04/2011 09:18

My method actually works. Mine are christened in Cof E and have been taken to church and Sunday school, have attended countless school assemblies- and I have 3 atheists. On the census I put down Christian, they put no religion.

What I don't see is why it matters, we are the same people and have the same relationship. I made my choice-it isn't set in stone and I may change-they made theirs. I never expected to make up their minds-I respond to te DCs that I have-not some preconceived idea. Life is a journey-why they should take the same path beats me!

Original poster
seeker · 19/04/2011 09:19

And I think I have said - repeatedly - that I think children should be exposed to all faiths.

So how would the Christians on here feel if they schools rotated the God prayed to at Assembly?

Muslim god on Monday, Hindu on on Tuesday, the Nature goddess on Wednesday, Sikh god on Thursday, Christian god on Friday......?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 19/04/2011 09:20

Had your parents taken my view fluffles you would have stopped going at 10yrs and avoided all the guilt!

Original poster
seeker · 19/04/2011 09:22

Thank you trillian - next time I need something explained, I'll know where to come!

OP posts:
gorionine · 19/04/2011 09:23

If you want change you need to join the secular society and fight for change

Sorry, was that for seeker or myself? If it is for me, you really misread my posts as a secular society is indeed the very last thing I want.

I am all for throwing all views in the melting pot-discussing and taking the ones you want-with your DCs not having to take yours just because you gave birth!
Agreed, but discussing a different religion views on things is not the same as practising them. It is illogical for my Dcs to PRACTICE 2 religions simultaneously, surely you can see that? It is a good things for my children to hear about other faith but it isn't a good thing for them to be saying words in their prayer at home that include "God has neither been born nrr has he fathered a child" and also insist on them saying prayers involving "The Son of God" in school. Open mind does not have to be inconsistant like that. it would not help my children to choose for themselves, it would just make them mix everything and not understand any of it.

exoticfruits · 19/04/2011 09:23

We are a Christian country seeker! The whole culture and history is Christian-why would you not follow the culture of your own country? We don't have a sihk culture. Easter is a Bank holiday. Eid etc are not Bank holidays. If you go to the National gallery you need to know the bible to understand half the pictures-etc.

fluffles · 19/04/2011 09:23

i think it depends on the child's character exotic - i was a real 'people pleaser' as a child and although my parents didn't really talk about their faith i wanted to fit in with them because they went to church and so did the people at school, but i'd say it was FAR more because my peers at school went to church than my parents that i felt the need to go along - i was happy to rebel against my parents but not against the school community.

exoticfruits · 19/04/2011 09:25

It was for seeker. I am really against collective worship in schools, but don't feel strongly enough about it to fight. I think that teaching RE alongside history is a good thing.

Original poster
seeker · 19/04/2011 09:25

Even if we are a nominally Christian country, I do not see that as a reason for all children to have to pray. You don't have to pray at work - why should children have to pray at school?

OP posts:
gorionine · 19/04/2011 09:25

Sorry, badly x-posted again!

I agree with Trillian.

Original poster
seeker · 19/04/2011 09:26

Why would anyone not want a secular society?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 19/04/2011 09:28

I would bet that from your school community fluffles far more are now atheists than catholics. I think it is the case of the catholic church being too forceful-not of my 'try it and see what you think'! It isn't the way the catholic church thinks-Cof E is far more wishy washy!!

exoticfruits · 19/04/2011 09:30

Why would anyone not want a secular society?

Why are we not a secular society? If the silent majority felt strongly about it they would be out on the streets and there would be change. They don't and there isn't. People moan about collective worship every few months on MN-how many join the secular society and fight-my guess is very few of the moaners!

gorionine · 19/04/2011 09:33

"Why would anyone not want a secular society?"

Because I would be very worried it would become like France or my own birth country (which is not actually secular but does not allow Muslim women wearing a scarf to work in education), it would mean that I could not work in a school anymore because I wear a scarf. I and many other women would have to choose between practicing their religion the way they see fit or work but would not be allowed both.

TrillianAstra · 19/04/2011 09:36

"Thank you trillian - next time I need something explained, I'll know where to come!"

I'll assume that was sarcasm! :o

The discussion you want to have doesn't seem to be actually linked to the thread title, that's all. If you won't do yoga because it will damage your Christian faith then you probably do want your child to say prayers at school, and you would probably want everyone else's children to say prayers too because if their atheist families won't tell them about Jesus then how are they to be saved?

onagar · 19/04/2011 09:49

It's not so much about proving that compulsory worship for other people's kids is bad It's about how many Christians tell us that we should stop objecting to our kids being required to worship their god. They say "It doesn't make any difference one way or another"

BUT when asked how they feel about NOT having compulsory worship they act like it will damage their child. Therefore they think it IS important which makes them hypocrites for claiming it won't make any difference to our kids.

This is not proof in itself that compulsory worship is wrong. It does demonstrate that many of those Christians claiming it has no effect are not being honest.

onagar · 19/04/2011 09:52

TrillianAstra, you are there! now think what would you say to the Christian who said that and THEN said "Stop objecting to your kids being required to worship our god it doesn't make any difference one way or another"

frakyouveryverymuch · 19/04/2011 09:55

seeker I wouldn't object to that at all tbh and we are what I would class a Christian family. I certainly wouldn't expect school to be teaching my DC about Christianity - that's for me (and DH) to do, with the support of Godparents, our families, our church etc. If schools wanted to expose them to other religions and rotate religion according to the day of the week that's fine. What I would object to is them being made to actively participate and believe but in most schools this is now well-handled and not at all the case.

In any case I happily went to my friends Bat Mitzvah/Chayils as a teen and I went to a dear friend's Hindu wedding and the handfasting of another all of which had great religious significance and I was glad to be invited to share the occasion. In fact being exposed to Judaism and Hinduism in practice at school as well as learning about the theory was positively beneficial. I do disagree with things being presented as the literal truth though, whether that be the story of Easter or the story or Diwali, in schools. It should always be couched in 'some people believe'.

Still think it's nothing to do with personal decisions about participating in a potentially spiritual activity though!

Original poster
seeker · 19/04/2011 10:01

'What I would object to is them being made to actively participate and believe but in most schools this is now well-handled and not at all the case. "

So why do I get shot down in flames when I object to my children being made to "actively participate" in Christianity?

Children should of course be taught about religion - it's the "active participation" i don;t want to happen. And if you don't want your Christian children to "actively participate" in Muslim worship why should I be happy about my children "actively participating" in Christian worship?

OP posts:
gorionine · 19/04/2011 10:14

Seeker, are you shot in flame on this thread or others? I for one agree totally with your view "I object to my children being made to "actively participate" in Christianity?", I only desagree with your feeling that if your/my children do not partake in collective worshiping it makes them less part of the school.

Original poster
seeker · 19/04/2011 11:35

Maybe shot down in flames was a bit strong - but I am always told tha I am wrong and should just accept the prayer element of school.

ANd actually, i do think that children who are withdrawn from assemblies are not able to fully participate in the school day. Why on earth organize something that excludes some pupils?

OP posts:
frakyouveryverymuch · 19/04/2011 13:12

There's a difference between participating, being in church for a carol service, and forced active participation, being made to sing the songs, kneel for prayers and go for a blessing IMO. If your children are forced to do that you shouldn't be being shot down in flames for saying so!

I've not yet seen a school, other than CofE or RC, where children are asked to actively kneel, sing or pray. Most accept passively being there as enough for participation in collective worship and I would have no objection to my DC being there and being exposed to the traditions and rituals of any religion.

MIFLAW · 19/04/2011 13:21

"I, as a Christian, have been to a very spiritual one and felt uncomfortable - not particularly because I'm unsure in my faith but because there seemed to be an almost 'holy'/worshipful/religious element which everyone else was taking very seriously."

I think this is an EXCELLENT description of how atheists and agnostics can feel when surrounded by lots of people praying to a Christian god.

meditrina · 19/04/2011 13:25

Seeker: if you feel that strongly, then opt out.

(And of course the more people opt out, the greater the chances of changing the requirement for a collective act of worship, in non-faith schools).

But there remains the possibility that people don't opt out for their children because they don't have a problem with the current policy on assemblies.