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Philosophy/religion

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Demonising

12 replies

smokingnuns · 02/03/2011 07:32

I've been listening to some old Derek Prince sermons, in which he talks about what he calls 'demonising' ie people who are oppressed by disembodied spirits. He makes the distinction that people are generally not possessed but oppressed by disembodied spirits who are 'desperate' to inhabit a living body, preferably a human body.

Re "We do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12)

In the context of Colossians 2:15 - "And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross", have MN christians had experiences along these lines? Does your church recognise that we are in a spiritual 'war', and does it take steps to 'deliver' people who are 'oppressed'? I am reminded of the early days of the church in which early believers were astonished that 'even the spirits obey us in your (Jesus') name'.

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MaryBS · 02/03/2011 20:44

In the C of E, there is a deliverance ministry, but its not widely publicised. Each diocese should have a deliverance team. Often what is initially reported as demonic possession could be something as simple as epilepsy. I heard a speaker recently on this subject, from the Marylebone centre in London. Fascinating stuff!

Spiritual warfare in my experience is more a mental battle between good and evil, rather than actual spirit possession, although I do believe it happens.

madhairday · 03/03/2011 17:14

I agree with Mary. I think some churches make a huge deal out of it, which can actually be quite dangerous. It is very real, but in some senses better to say God has the victory, why give the other side the time of day, or words to that effect. Diocesan teams for this type of stuff are well trained, often in counselling as well, and have a gentle and sensible approach as opposed to the somewhat hysterical and frankly toxic approach you see in some churches.

All in all, yep I believe it, and yep have experienced praying in such situations, have seen people set free, but in general it's not common and it's more likely something else.

eaglewings · 03/03/2011 17:22

We can tend to look for the devil under every bed, so there is a need to keep a level head.

I think it is very possible to be oppressed and not to have the freedom God wills for us, but we have a simple and easy solution. We ask God to empower us with the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus, or some simila prayer.

In the very few situations where there is a deep routed problem the teams Madhair and Mary have written about are always available and I know of times when they have been invalable.

I have also heard of when they were called in and it turned out to be an alarm clock with a cock crowing set for the early hours of the morning that was causing the problem!

MaryBS · 03/03/2011 17:50

The RCC also have deliverance teams.

smokingnuns · 04/03/2011 14:46

Thanks for feedback. I agree with you eaglewings that the danger is to get too black and white about it re devils in the wardrobe, under the bed etc. But ime this 'warfare' is very real. I lived in africa for a time and there is no question that a spiritual dimension exists that does not, shall we say, represent the good guys: very obvious manifestations that could not be put down to anything other than spiritual in origin.

We tend to think we are too civilised in the west, don't stick pins in dolls etc, and that kind of stuff is not relevant here. I disagree. I also have a friend who has become very involved in a ministry, based in \australia, whose central message is demonic possession etc etc, based predominantly on 'portholes' that come through freemasonry. It is obvious, to me at least, that this ministry is cultish, not least by my now ex (her choice) friend's complete change of character and commitments. She has cut off everyone who doesn't follow this ministry and spends all her money getting to australia as often as possible to sit at the feet of the teacher, neglecting her family in the process. I guess you could say you know something by its fruits.

I respect Derek Prince and take seriously what he has (had) to say. He is unequivocal that there is such a thing as 'demonising' (again, distinction is made between possession and oppression), with many examples, and there is certainly evidence in my life and those around me that that could be the case. However, I would like to know more about it but not know too much iyswim. There is very little about demonic oppression in the bible and, I assume, that is because we don't need to know too much about it, it's not our business to know too much. As you say, madhair, the central need-to-know is the blood of Jesus, what he paid for; that his is the name above all names, which includes any spiritual personalities causing trouble "stealing, killing, destroying". He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross - that's done and complete. I sometimes wonder if the 'fight' is akin to a legal battle: 'they' try it on, we say no, you can't do that, that's illegal, get off/out. In the name of Jesus ie that is the authority, not our own.

So I would approach this circumspectly. I heard once of a ministry which got into 'casting out demons' in a big way and were astonished that ever more lurid manifestations tipped up at every meeting. The ministry came to the conclusion that narcissism was at play, fame and recognition craved by the spiritual 'personalities' making an appearance, and prompty stopped hosting their party. That's a thought. Derek Prince also tells the story of a spiritual 'personality' who insisted on being called by its right name and made an enormous fuss about it.

But now I'm going out on a limb... However, I do believe this (demonising) is very real and to ignore it is a mistake, but to give it too much attention is also a mistake. Deal with it as a matter of course could be the answer - though churches would have to believe it is a contemporary reality in order to deal with it. And many don't, which is a tragedy imo. I am reminded of the example of the woman bent double, oppressed by a 'spirit' that Jesus cast out. I know a woman like this, who is relatively young and healthy but in an alarming domestic set-up with an alarmingly spooky husband, and myriad problems in the children. It could follow that there is some demonic activity going on in that situation ie the answer could be simple, straightforward. Personally, I would like to see people set free and am not fussy about how that is accomplished - why not by utilising the tremendous authority that broke the power of evil? Is that the (or a) fight we're in, to literally call on that authority to set people free?

I'm also reminded of eg a woman who lost her leg in an accident, and it transpires that her mother had also lost her leg years before but in different circumstances. What's going on there - was it a tragic coincidence, or did the daughter somehow psychologically mirror her mother: and, anyhow, why is psychology perceived as the final authority, the legitimate and accepted route, or root, of difficult-to-explain phenomena or 'coincidences'.?

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madhairday · 04/03/2011 16:20

Interesting questions OP. I would suggest you get hold of this book - it is clear and concise and written by someone I completely trust and respect who has a lot of experience in this field - in fact he is a diocesan advisor for deliverance.

MaryBS · 04/03/2011 17:43

That looks interesting MHD!

I found the text of the speech Chris McKenna from the Marylebone centre gave last November, as mentioned earlier:

Depressed Oppressed or Possessed

smokingnuns · 05/03/2011 01:03

Your link was blocked on my pc MHD - can you post the title?

Thanks for the Chris McKenna speech Mary. Hmm, would like to have heard some accounts of the 1%! I agree that mental health issues can be and often are at the root of what could be deemed spiritual interference. However, I don't agree that that is always the case, though mental health issues could easily result from oppression of a spiritual 'entity'. That could be because our civilised culture shies away from what is considered an extreme interpretation of mental or emotional distress re demonic oppression. However, many cultures have no such reservations and fully accept the presence of evil, or evil representatives, but we dismiss their theories, considering them backward, uneducated - we hold great store by our education. We are also frightened of the suggestion that distress or unmanageable psychological or physical upheaval could be the result of an evil presence. This could suggest either a lack of knowledge (ignorance) or a distrust of knowledge that is clearly represented in the stories of the new testament. If these are ignored or dismissed, what then can be the interpretation of "We do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"? The antidote is surely that these evil rulers were disarmed of their power at the cross and there is nothing to fear (how often is the bible littered with 'Fear not/do not be afraid' ie copious reassurance that all is well). There are many ways to effect release for the troubled, which are effectively practised by many agencies - but deliverance ministry is one way that is pointedly neglected by the church. We may be missing something there.

He also gives an extreme example of a specific interpretation of demonic oppression/possession in the case of Victoria Climbie. That is an inflammatory example and hardly fair or balanced, representing as it does a culture that is known to accept the presence of specific evil interference in our lives but using as an example the terrifying way it was handled in that instance. Some terrible things have been done to people in the name of 'deliverance' but how about the deliverance ministries that are workaday and calmly carried out, always with a careful respect for the whole person, never physical. The Australian teacher my friend is in thraw to shouts a lot. But do we need to shout - does a policeman shout when he stops your car and asks you for your licence? He doesn't need to shout, he represents a powerful authority that we recognise.

I agree, however, that 'love never fails' and he makes the excellent point that love in action successfully thawed some troubled and struggling people. Pity the poor tormented souls who do not have a St Marylebone to hand - in the majority of churches you wouldn't get that amazing attention to detail OR a ministry that recognises spiritual attack - though the two should run hand in hand, as someone suggested.

OP posts:
madhairday · 05/03/2011 19:43

It's 'Healing and Deliverance' by John Woolmer, not sure why it was blocked as was an amazon link. :)

mariamagdalena · 07/03/2011 21:19

another book

LadyFannyofBumStreet · 14/03/2011 04:04

Heh. Apologies OP, I know this question was directed at the Christians, but I had to raise an eyebrow (or two) at the comment by SmokingG, and in particular

"I lived in africa for a time and there is no question that a spiritual dimension exists that does not, shall we say, represent the good guys: very obvious manifestations that could not be put down to anything other than spiritual in origin"

Africa and it's inhabitants have existed on this Earth for millions of years. Christianity as a religion is about 500 years old. How can then one argue that their system "does not represent the good guys".

Who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys? I have a Hindu friend whose altar has his Hindu dieties on one side to represent 'gods', and Christian dieties on the other side to represent 'demons'.

Ironically, the crucifix/cross that is used to defeat these so called "demons" is an ancient African symbol that used to represent the crossroads i.e +, which is where an African deity called Esu resides (jESUs). Interestingly, Esu has long been denounced by Christians as being the Devil/Satan. Hmm

smokingnuns · 14/03/2011 12:45

One didn't argue that the african 'system' doesn't represent the good guys. A spiritual dimension I said, not the whole system, silly. Same here in the west and anywhere in the world. I used my experiences in Africa as an example, as what I believe to be demonic manifestion is very obvious there, more subtle here imo. You know something by its fruits I tend to think, though no doubt some hairs could be split on that.

Not sure where the 500 years came from and, frankly, not interested, only interested in people being set free from oppression, of any kind, and believe the physical is not all there is; that there is a spiritual dimension representing the good and the bad, and that people are oppressed by the bad which concerns me. I'd like the church to do something about that - believing, as I do, that Christ, of christian, of church, gave it/us (the church) the authority, using the blood of Jesus, to get the 'bad guys' off people.

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