apparently my marriage is 'invalid'

[ConfusedCatholic]

hi, i've name changed for fear of being recognised...

brief history: i was brought up a Catholic, confirmed, kept going under my own steam at uni etc. I stopped going when dad divorced mum and our church frowned on her being a divorcee. i guess i got out of the habit of going over the years but still counted myself as being a Catholic

i got pg with dc1 in nov 07, engaged dec 07, pg with dc2 in dec 09, married in 2010 (whilst still pg with dc2)

just recently (last few months) i've been going to my local church (alternating what dc came with me, not quite ready to handle them both on my own in church yet!). dc has been having a blessing and i've been taking communion. i enquired about getting them both baptised. 4 mths later and i've had a surprise visit today from one of the priests. It seems i passed his test because we're 'allowed' to go on the baptism course but he's left me thinking.

Because we didn't get married in a catholic church, our marriage is apparenlty invalid and i'm not meant to receive communion. i had no idea.

we didn't get married in a church because dh is a non-believer (but christened c of e) and because i was quite lapsed. also it would have felt wrong given that we had dc1 by then and i was pg with dc2 at the time.

i'm not really sure what i'm asking here, i guess i just want to have a discussion about it all. Why is it that my marriage is invalid? dh made a good point about God is meant to be everywhere and hear everything so he was therefore at our wedding and knows about it

Also, we need to attend a baptism course but can't take dc2 (4mths old) with us, despite being ebf and a bottle refuser. On the church's website is says that its recommended that parents attend the course before the birth

i'm sure i'm going to be asked why i want my dc baptised so i'll pre-empt the question! Because I want them brought up with Christian (catholic?) values and i want them to feel part of a bigger family (ie the church)

is it just me or am i right in feeling that i'm not being accepted by the church at the moment because of decisions i've made? (that incidentally i don't regret)

oh and he talked to me about a convalidation (sp?). dh (despite being a non-believer) will go through with it if i want to but i don't know if i do or not. i AM married, it is valid....

sorry that was so long!

also, does anyone know if the convalidation can be done at the same time as the baptism?

thanks in advance for any replies

It's because marriage in the Catholic church is a sacrament as well as a legal union. So although in the eyes of the law, you're married, you haven't received the sacrament.
I doubt that you're not being accepted by the church, although I understand why you feel like that, but there are strict rules about receiving Communion, and the priest had to tell you if you were breaking them, because he wouldn't be able to give you Communion any more knowing that you weren't, according to the 'rules', in a position to receive it.
I've heard of convalidations being performed at the same time as baptisms, so I guess if you wanted to do it, have a chat to the priest and see if he'd be able to do it.

You should be able to get a convalidation. It will take some time and paperwork though. You'll also need to do a marriage preparation course. There will be other couples on this in similar positions to you so you shouldn't feel alone or not accepted.

Lots of Catholics don't get married these days - I am a single parent that never married. So I don't think that you should feel isolated or rejected.

I think that the Church accepts people such as yourself as being in serious relationships, and will give you the chance to put this right if you want to.

I can't believe they never told you this stuff at school! (I remember it so well because we always used to argue with our teachers - or mock them) Feel quite bad about the way we laughed at our RE teachers now...

It takes at least 6 months to do marriage preparation so my guess it that it will be after the baptism? I'd advise to baptise as soon as possible because I think that schools are getting funny about it and I understand now that in certain parts of the country you have to be christened before a certain age?

I'm sorry, but in the eyes of the Church, you were never married as it would be a defect of form and place. Marriage is more than just a legal ceremony and status. It's the whole big sacrament thing. A civil marriage makes no promises of being lifelong for instance, which is a prerequisite for Catholic marriage as it is a sign of God's unending love.

Re receiving communion - the priest cannot actually refuse you unless an interdict is issued (that will never happen). I know lots of people who shouldn't receive communion, but do so and it is not up to other people to judge. However, lots of people can't receive communion for various reasons. I wasn't able to after the birth of DD for sometime as I couldn't get to confession once a year! I can now that she is at school. Sometimes, I eat something and forget there's a Mass at school I have to go to and then can't have communion as it's shortened and I'd break the one hour fast rule. Just because I can't always receive communion doesn't make me any less of a Catholic and it is better not to receive it if I am not in the right position to imho.

As a non-Catholic, your DH would be right and non-catholics can have valid and even sacramental marriages in some circumstances. However, you as a Catholic knew that you were bound to get married in a Catholic church (unless a dispensation of place/form were issued) and witnessed by an RC Priest or deacon.

There's no reason why your children should not be baptised. The first sacraments are very important and special - I hope that you and your family make a special occasion of it and have a really joyful celebration.

Oh I don't know - I'm not a Catholic (although I am quite religious and go to church - Anglican) and DH is a Catholic. Apologies for mistakes.

For him it was important that we did everything properly, so ...

We got two dispensations in order to get married (one for him to be able to marry me, the other to be allowed not to get married in a catholic church).

We weren't in the same country at the time so we didn't do much of a marriage preparation course (a couple of meetings with a priest/sister). Not sure if this is generally allowed or just because we were never together.

Re: baptism. The kids are baptised Catholic. DH had to promise before we got married that the kids would be raised Catholic and I had to say that I knew that he had promised this.

They don't have to go to church every Sunday until they get their first communion (I think, I'm willing to be corrected), and no, I can't face taking both on my own either. Mostly DH goes to mass on his own, and then we go to my (non-Catholic) church as a family. That's enough church for everyone.

Re: baptism preparation. I think that it might depend on the parish a bit. Here, where I live, it is much more culturally normal to get your children baptised and so the churches tend to have big baptisms with up to 10 children every Saturday afternoon. For god parents and parents the only preparation that we needed was one evening course for about an hour. We just called in to see the parish administrator and he put us in the diary.

Finally, and I'm not sure if I can explain this well, I think that you need to decide how serious you are going to be about this Catholic stuff. Is it important to you that you take all the different bits together that make being Catholic important. The good bits like being part of a parish, but also the difficult bits like being part of a church that sometimes says stuff that you don't agree with or that hurts you or those that you love. Or are you able to live with the bits that you don't agree without feeling always that you need to change.

Hope that I haven't offended anyone here, and that I've not made any mistakes. Apologies if so.

If you have a wedding certificate then your marriage is valid despite what some bloke in a skirt may think.

Try finding a different priest.

I'm also an Anglican married to a Catholic.

We got married in a catholic church, although not our parish at the time, but the parish where DH had been since birth and all his family were baptised & married there.

We had lessons, but this was just a couple of 1hr sessions with a priest going over the meaning behind the various bits of the ceremony. I think whether you go on a longer course probably differs between parishes, but I should also say that we married over 8 years ago so things may have changed.

I had to sign to say that if we had children I agreed that they would be raised in the catholic faith.

DD was born last year. Our parish has a baptism course- it's two Sunday afternoons and uses a DVD put together by the Birmingham Diocese. It was actually very good, and far less patrionising that we feared! We were the first couple to attend before the child had been born (we were tied to dates as the Godmother was coming from abroad). They are happy for the children to attend the course, but our parish is like that with children. I can understand why they wouldn't want children there to be honest- if you have a group of people then the distraction of several young children/ babies will detract from how much people can learn. Although this is a bit counter-intuitive given that you're discussing their reception into the church!

As for receiving communion, don't worry about having done it before you were told not to- DH always goes by what one of his priests told him when they were preparing to make their first communion: it is better to welcome Jesus into a dirty house than to shut him out.

I expect that the priest will be so delighted that you want to have your marriage made valid and effectively return to the church, bringing your DC with you, that they would make the effort to have it as one ceremony.

I'm a Catholic who has just gone through the annulment process after marrying a Catholic in a Catholic Church and being together 17 years. Basically what the priest said to you was that marriage as the church sees it is a sacrament of the Church, and unless performed in a Catholic church or Eastern Orthodox church, with both parties certain of what they're getting into and knowing all the relevant facts about each other, and under no pressure from third parties among other conditions, your civil marriage is not a sacramental marriage.

The church acknowledges civil marriages, and in fact will not proceed with an annulment until the parties have been civilly divorced. Nor will it proceed with a convalidation if it's found that either of you has a civil marriage that has not ended in divorce afaik. And if either of you contracted a Catholic marriage that has not ended in divorce and annulment as well, then the Catholic annulment process will have to be undertaken as well as the civil divorce. (AFAIK)

Some convalidation information. The process often involves going to confession as a way of cleaning the slate before embarking on your new sacramental life.

I was pleasantly surprised by the kindness and professionalism of the church officials I encountered in the course of my annulment process and I hope the priests and other church officials you meet in the course of your convalidation process are nice and welcoming to you, especially since you are doing the opposite of what I did , along with your lovely DCs, and since you are apparently well disposed towards the practice of your religion.

There are forms to fill out and some of it may seem far from spiritual in any way, but the Church has its bureaucracy and it's a huge international organisation.

The baptism preparation courses I attended (went to two for DD1 and DS one after the other and they told us we didn't need to come back for the other three when they were born) had a mixture of expectant parents and parents who had already had their babies. If it's hard for you to find a babysitter, then you could explain things to the priest - they recommended you came before the baby was born in my parish too, but I read that as only a suggestion and nobody batted an eye when we showed up with newborn DS and DD1 aged 3 with her colouring book and crayons; she sat quietly on the floor and all was well. Varies from parish to parish though...

Wishing you all the best.

'that either of you has a civil marriage that has not ended in divorce afaik.' That is, a civil marriage to other parties, not the one you have now. whooooops