Horrible dilemma - work at a church (Christian)

[Jackaroo]

Hello there -

I really hope someone can give me some perspective on my situation. It has been chewing away at me for the last few weeks, and gradually getting worse. I will try and summarise.

A year ago, by fluke/design/whatever I ended up volunteering at a nearby church. I have a childhood of attending CofE, was married in my childhood church, and feel still very attached to the religion, but would call myself a work-in-progress.

My MIL attends this church, and I had visited a couple of times with her. At this point my last job "disappeared"whilst I was on mat.leave, and I was very aware I needed something.

When I arrived it was based on the idea that the vicar had an idea for a paid job that he thought I'd be perfect for (based on a 5 min phone chat). Cut to 6 months on. Volunteering has been fun, fulfilling, and I like everyone here, so here I stay, in the new role of "Parish Manager". The difference being that I would be able to spend money, get things done, have a fiscal responsbility and manage non-spiritual aspects above those of a secretary (as previous incumbent was).

It's great. The people are great. I'm learning more, and feeling quite challenged, as much as I want to be right now with a 18 month old with chronic infections, and a 5 yr old just starting school.

BUT.

The vicar is a larger-than-life character, he is very well recognised in the local high street, very upfront and given to chatting at length. I was always a little unsure of him because of his enthusiasm for projects but no follow through, but that's OK because that's why I'm here and the wardens. However, the following are a selection of issues that have confronted me in the last 6 months:

1 - He has started going direct to the committee that raises funds through our own charity shop for items for the vicarage - most recently an american fridge-freezer with ice maker and new flooring (both were new 5 years ago).

2 - He recently told a parishioner of 20 years that she couldn't consider herself a Christian because she didn't feel she could talk about her faith and evangelise in the high street with a team.

3 - He tells me the details of those who come to him for counsel and solace, even thought I work here, i know they don't know this.

4 - He treats the petty cash as his ATM and has a Pajero paid for (with all petrol etc) by the parish. There is a pretty good estate car sitting in the parish car park starting to look abandoned, which is theirs...

5 - He's never here. He's always off with his wife having breakfast, coffee etc out and I really mean it - there are weeks where he's visible in the church/office maybe 4 hours.... his pastoral visiting is pretty much a couple of times a month. and then it's ad hoc seeing people he already sees alot (Unless someone rings and asks for him specifically). He never returns calls, I spend half my 15 hours apologising for him/ filling gaps.

6 - I have (last week) found out that no one in one significant area of the parish likes him (those who he's going to for money, they obviously feel they can't say no). So I don't feel I'm alone anymore.

I have to go - but there is so much more. Essentially, i feel as if he is taking advantage of people's good nature, that he is keeping financial info from the Treasurer, and treating the place as his own personal fiefdom (sp? again).

What do you think? I'm questioning the integrity of the vicar, can I do that? THe wardens are aware of the general flakiness, but um and ahh about it, they do not know some of these specifics, and when I mentioned one of them, there was major consternation.

You maybe don't have enough info, but this is a long enough post!

All thoughts gratefully received.

J

PS This is NOT in the UK btw, but in Oz.

I have no idea what you should do but you need to do something I think.

Good luck with what you do, i hope someone sensible can come along with some good advice.

Are you getting paid? Not that it matters really in the context. sounds very stressful for you. What does your DH think?

I am a Christian. I suggest that you speak direct to him about as much of this as you can. I think that is respectful. He will either work with that or not. If not, you can leave with a clear conscience.

Have sent you a PM

Thanks, Horopu.

LardyMa - does that mean I shouldn't say anything to anyone else? Are you saying I should leave because I'm unhappy, or because I don't get something? Am very unsure of my own thoughts at the moment, so could do with some clarification of yours.

just so you know, I am completely respectful at all times, and have not said ANY of this to anyone else (the thing that caused consternation, I thougth the Treasurer knew already).

What am I telling him for? What end would it serve.

I've just checked back, I didn't say I wanted to leave (I don't), does it sound as if I should?

Am more baffled

cheers, happytobe.

Hi there Jackaroo - I don't mean to imply you have done anything wrong and I cannot profess to be an expert. Just reading your post made me think you have 3 options which you could combine - 1) grin and bear it 2) talk to him to try and change situation 3) leave. HTH!

or report him to a higher authority ..... nice to try and talk to him first ....

Actually, I don't think I would speak to him first. Some of what you say amounts to theft, IMO. I would speak to the treasurer first, and then consider whether to take it to his superior.

OK, finances first. It sonds as though you have valid concerns. The difficulty will be in establishing whether this is just slipshod accounting, or whether there's actual background fraud. My suspicion in the former, but I think you and the treasurer need to sit down with an accountant and look at the books very closely. Since you are both charged with fiscal responsibility, that would be a reasonable first step.

It sounds as though your church finances need to be thoroughly professionalised and monitored. It doesn't sound as though the current finance people know how to make this happen. Yet. But I suspect you'll be finding out, as it's in no-one's interests (including the vicar's) to have this fuzziness. Perhaps the diocese or equivalent, or the charity commission could advise?

I don't know whether your denomination considers new vicarage items, and the vicar's car as parish expenses or as the pastor's own living costs which should be met from his stipend. Again, using petty cash eg when having a coffee could be considered as leisure or as outreach spending. Either way, you should have receipts, or, even with very small amounts, a log of how much was spent, on what and when. I suspect this is a legal requirement if charity shop funds are being used.

If these things are parish expenses, I wonder who should be responsible for considering if they are reasonable. You could also do with a clear procedure to ensure that spending decisions are clear and transparent.

Now, the other stuff. Routinely telling you about the private affairs of parishoners is not ideal. He probably does need a trusted friend to share difficult situations with, and ideally that would be another clergy member. Could you tell him you don't feel comfortable with it at least unless it's necessary, or they have given consent?

"Never here': I don't know what's the norm for vicars in your community. And what he's doing when out and about. It might be that he feels wandering the high street is presenting the visible face of the Church to souls in need of solace. And there may be truth in that. On the other hand, you clearly know about other people's pressing needs that aren't being met. Wearing your secretary /PA/ administrator hat, it would be very reasonable for you to manage some of his time more formally, even though he's technically your superior.

He sounds either pretty dodgy, hopelessly inadequate or talented but flaky and needing someone organised who can structure and manage his work. The answer to that question may tell you which approach to take.

Its up to the church committee to decide what defines as a reasonable expense, and it should all definately be recorded, in the UK its a legal requirement for charities.

How dare he say that to that poor woman!!! Her faith is her business not his!! SHes not harming anyone by not doing it!! Im a christian and I dont agree with evangelising in the street on that basis (and Im far too low in confidence) I wouldnt do it!

My OH used to work as a church administrator and it was a paid position with a proper job description about what his responsibilities were. I am not sure whether you are still working voluntarily or are now paid but would suggest that you do need a job description of some sort to make it clear which aspects of organisation are yours, the vicars and the church council. For example my OH was responsible for taking bookings for the church hall BUT the minister kept his own appointment diary.
In the UK there are strict regulations for charity finances where all money including petty cash must be accounted for with receipts. Churches (and other charities) in the UK need to have their accounts independently audited each year by an independent accountant (not just the church treasurer) and this can be inspected by the charity commission. When my OH was administrator he had to attend and take minutes of finance meetings so he was not excluded from this.
Vicars in the UK do have a special tax status so that they are self employed even though they are employed by the church. This helps take into account additional income such as wedding fees etc. You could check what the tax status of vicars is in your country and if there are any expenses guidelines.
Have never heard of the parish paying for the vicars car. Usually expenses cover petrol only. Hope that helps

Slightly off-topic re crazymum's post: vicars don't get additional income from doing weddings. That used to be the case in the Old Old Days. Any income from doing weddings or funerals now goes straight to the diocese - it is not an extra. Retired clergy do get paid for doing these services but not regular stipendiary clergy. That put a stop to some parishes being "good livings" as such.

DandyDan I should have used the word minister rather than vicar as my OH worked for an independent church and there was no diocese. The church had to self-fund all their activities and was an independent Christian charity registered with the charity commission.

It sounds like you can sort out almost all of the issues with some more 'professional' or 'trasparent' accounting processes and an official diary.

I would do this all quite gradually but as a programme of modernisation. You can explain that the parish is now in a position to do this as you are now on-board.

You can talk to the treasurer and work out proceedures for expenses and petty cash.

You can also sit down with him and ask what days/hours he is available for you to make appointments for him in his official diary.

Good luck. This won't sort out the issue with confidentiality or with his opinions on evangelising but at least you can keep your integrity and have a clear conscience about the other stuff.

I'm working in the same position in a Christian Church in the UK and have been for a couple of years - and like you I am really enjoying it. And it sounds as though I'm working for a very similar, well liked, larger than life priest.

Our parish is set up with the priest in overall control. He makes the final decision in the parish about what is bought and how it's run, with some valuable guidance from parishioners and me.

And the parish runs the priest, financially. He's paid a very small stipend each month, and the parish pay for his expenses, including housekeeping - food, drink, dry cleaning and so on and although he owns and runs his own car we pay him a mileage allowance for all his mileage.

What is the set up in your parish for paying the vicar; does he get a reasonable salary or a stipend? If it's a stipend, what do you expect him to live on? The parish has to pay to 'run' a priest/vicar somehow - be it by paying a levy to the diocese who then pay him a salary or by funding all of his living costs.

My priest also uses me as a sounding block for the troubles of the parishioners - and although my situation is different as I'm not a member of the parish - I can absolutely understand why. There's no-one else for him to unwind with, no-one to discuss difficult problems without going to his boss. It's a pretty tough job really, being on call 24 hours a day and very little opportunity to switch off and not be 'on show'.

I don't like the sound of him telling off a parishioner and questioning her faith though. It does sound a bit bullying. Is there more to it?

From what you've written, I can't really see much of a problem. The vicar/priest needs money - and I can't see why he shouldn't use the parish car rather than his own. What's the parish bought a car for if it's not for him to use?

As I understand it, jackaroo's vicar has a family, at least a wife, to whom he can talk about parish issues. I can see that if he treats Jackaroo like a personal private secretary, he might discuss parish business with her, but if she is uncomfortable with the level of information, she should say so.

"If it's a stipend, what do you expect him to live on?" A Church of England's vicar's stipend is exactly that - enough to live on. The parish doesn't pay for food or drink or buy a "parish car". A stipend doesn't allow much in the way of luxury (and not enough to afford US-style fridges, unless his spouse is also working), but still enough. Vicars should be very careful about what they claim for on expenses, and parishes should be very careful about what they sign cheques for. There should be some diocesan guidelines that Jackaroo can access about these things - phone up the diocesan secretary or something.

thanks Dandydan - that's it exactly! it's not (as I said) that I expect him (or his children, or wife) to live on fresh air, it's the relatively flashiness of the items he choosen, and then asked others to pay for them without anyone except me knowing, that bothers me. And no, it's not a stipend, it's a salary. and his wife works 25hrs/wk. I know what his salary is (and it's an above average salary for this country, which may not be alot, but it's still not tuppence).That when given a chance to choose a car, the car he choose was so big (in every sense of the word).

He does take money separately for weddings (not sure if it's allowed, will check), and despite us advertising that the cost includes a verger, since he arrived he has done everything, so gets both fees (only found that out this weekend).

As to his being available 24/7 and it being very hard, well, a - he's not because he turns his phone off for at least 24 if not 48 hours over Friday and Saturday, and screens all his calls the rest of the time, and b - he choose to do this job, and really is very happy with the status quo (unless it's all a front).

he and his wife have their issues (yes, am party to those too), not least that he tries to be with her whenever she is not at work. This is apparently because someone took an interest in her a few years ago, so now he has to keep an eye on her and "make sure she's alright". She seems perfectly happy with this arrangement. Genuinely. They are very loved up and natural around each other. but the moment her boss took a holiday (so she had to), he dropped everything and took a 2 week holiday without telling anyone first! He has told me, she is the most impt thing in his life, which when I first heard it made me go "ahh". Now I'm a little creeped out (I know, I'm so cynical and jealous. It's probably lovely), and didn't realise he meant to the detriment of his job/parishioners.

On transparency, I made huge efforts this past year with diary dates, formalising appt.s etc... and he's just not interested (despite saying he is). e.g. asked me to type up a list of all those he thought need visiting most urgently, in October. In December he said he couldn't find his copy so hadn't been able to visit anyone........ I also was told by the treasurer he was happy for me to do a more detailed account of petty cash, because he doesn't have time, just gets it done, but I simply can't keep up with what I alreayd have... but maybe I just prioritise this, if only for peace of mind.

Finally,very happy to act as a sounding board, but I do know the difference between that and gossip and especially when it's about my closest colleagues/volunteers, who I know would not expect me to be in the circle, it is difficult.

It's all just very weird, and I'm happy to have had a forum to discuss it, and have your different ideas and perspective.

The important thing is to thank you all for your input, it has been a huge source of comfort. Also, to say that I have arranged to meet two, if not three of the wardens on Wednesday whilst Mr and Mrs V are still on holiday.

Wish me luck for Wednesday! I truly want to know that it is actually all OK and I don't have to worry about it all. meanwhile, oneof the office workers (who reports to me) apparently thinks I'm "an interloper and a sinner", and there to make trouble, and has sabotaged my efforts to take a holiday this week by leaving my home number on the pew sheets, and on the voicemail. One at a time eh? Everyone else is great.

J

PS

Hi Jackaroo.

You're in a very difficult position at the moment as the main repository of worrying information, but without the authority to do much with that beyond speak out. And speaking out is a very tricky balance between trying not to bear false witness whilst still managing to hunger and thirst for justice.

Hearing the rest of the story, I have a few more concerns than I did originally. I guess one way to do this would be to state the bare facts of the finance and diary difficulties to your colleagues, and agree a common position re a need for modernisation and transparency. I would be wary of doing any more than this during a secret meeting in the absence of the vicar, as such meetings can degenerate into a kangaroo court.

I wonder if you could meet someone in a higher position in your church to outline your difficulties to, and request an urgent visit from the accounts body or similar. My suspicion is that all of these concerns need to be discussed confidentially, at a more senior level, and that this would also help you by relieving you of the burden of responsibility.

Hi Jackaroo, you are in a difficult position. I have second hand experience of a similar kind, so I do understand how conflicted you feel about your vicar, your relationship with him and your concerns about the parish, parishoners and his practices.

Talk to others if you feel you can, but also consider putting your concerns in writing to your bishop or if you have one a monsignor. They may be able to have a quiet word and bring about change in a way quietly and confidentially. This is not always possible when you involve the committee.

I guess that what you do next depends on whether you want him to change or you think that your parish needs a new vicar.

Mmm. that's a very interesting last line Dione - it is a stark reminder of what is at stake here, and I'm loathed to press too far as I am so new. BUT, I know that the wardens I'll speak to on Wednesday (well now thursday actually) have real integrity, and whilst one of them may have been letting the vicar "get away" with a bit, he would never had colluded in the issues I've outlined before.

Therefore, and given their combined wisdom and years of service, and their continued support and recognition of my difficult position (without even being aware HOW difficult!).. I think they deserve the bare facts as I see them, before I think about going to a higher authority.

There is something about taking it out of their hands at the outset which unnerves me, and strikes me as a little unfair. The wardens, between them, are a QC, an internationally reknowned engineer, and a partner at PWC. Between them they surely should be able to cope with this information? I'm not blinded by their CVs, btw, just pointing out that they have some cumlative work experience that might be apposite.

If they say you're doing a fabulous job, stop worrying, I'll take it further I think.

Thanks again. Your thoughts at this time are much appreciated.

J

Jackaroo - with more information now I would also have serious concerns.

A member of the clergy on a competitive salary is a very different situation to that in which I work where the priest is paid a teeny stipend each month.

I do feel the most important thing to address are the finances. If I felt our finances were being spent inappropriately, I would raise my concerns in the first instance to the Diocesan Finance Office (or wherever the annual financial return is filed). I would not refer it to any parish based person or group; but I act as the Treasurer for our parish and so am responsible for the accounts in every way. I would not be willing to allow my reputation to be tarnished by involving anyone in the middle of my concerns.

If I had genuine, serious concerns about the way the pastoral side of the post were being executed, I would, I think in the first instance talk to the next level up - the Dean - in confidence. I wouldn't raise it with parishioners. My next step would be to write to the Bishop but I would have to be very sure indeed of my position - and content with all possible outcomes - to do that.

I would be very hesitant to involve parishioners, regardless of their role in any of this. It needs a measure of confidentiality, respect and authority to deal with it well and only the vicar's employers have that. This approach will also have the added bonus of taking it neatly out of your hands and passing it onto someone who is in a stronger position to deal with it.

As an aside, are the accounts filled annually? If they are, who does it and where are they displayed? Ours go up on the church noticeboard and any significant spend - eg a car or super duper fridge would stick out like a sore thumb and both the parishioners and the diocesan office would question it. Money can't just be spent, regardless of who knows about it, without it being accounted for somehow.

I'm afraid I agree with "report to a higher authority".

OK, so I've met with the wardens and it was very helpful.

They more or less said (in fact, did say) that it was not new to them, but the degree of it, and the current intent seemed new.

They were not (any of them) aware of the direct conversations between Mr V and the charity ladies, and his use of their money, or the extent of the petty cash use. The treasurer did say that it had increased dramatically this year ( ie since they've had someone part time who cannot "hold" the petty cash tin).

We talked about the other subjects, but are starting with the financial. The general agreement is that it all points in the same direction, to someone lacking discipline.

there is to be a new Rector's warden from Feb. He came along too. He, with the others will use the artless "tell me how thigns" work card, and set up a far more formal line of accountibility for the pastoral work (ie white board with all of our tasks on it, broken down weekly /monthly/ and when it needs to be done by). I've not been managed like that before, but apparently it's the bedrock of his vast building empire!!

Anyway, no sure how much detail you want/need, but just to say when I felt wobbly I remembered all of you and just jumped in and told them all my concerns. Thank you so much. I can go to work now thinking it's someone else's job to make sure we're transparent, I just need to make sure I am .

They are having a warden's meeting (which would normally include Mr V and me). Unfortunatley I will be away that day (which works nicely as they can scrutinise, be harsher with him, without my being there). I have suggested to the treasurer that this is an ideal time to reign in his spending as there have been several diocese-wide changes to be implemented from Jan 1st around money/ transparency etc., so he can say "it's all come from above" as it were!

I will come back at some point and let you know how it's going, but thank you again. You gave me a strength I couldn't find myself.

Cheers,

J

PS I did say that in theory I was supposed to report it to a higher authority, and that I'd consulted "those that know, in the UK" , that had them all hands to the pump. So I think they are taking it even MORE seriously. J

hi jackaroo, glad things are better
reading through this, I'm a bit concerned that taken as a whole, the thread might make you / your parish identifiable.
wanted to make sure you knew that mumsnet HQ will often consider deleting identifiable things if there's a need.

Hi Maria

I was wondering about that, but given that we're in a different country, and the only people who I think would put 2 and 2 together are very close friends, I'm not too perturbed, but yes, might see if I can get it deleted. Will print it all off first though!

Thanks,

J