I'd like to ask some very ignorant questions about the Koran

[PrettyCandlesAndTinselToo]

I came across a Victorian (I think) translation of the Koran, and have been reading it.

I expected a narrative, like, say, the Jewish and Christian Bibles, but it's not at all what I expected.

So my questions are:

What is the Koran?
Who are the "I", "We", and "He" that are frequently mentioned, without reference to a name?
Where is the narrative?

hi PrettyCandles

Is it the George Sale one?

Its pretty funny that one and not very good - my mum has a copy :)

this is a pretty good article covering some of the many English translations if you are interested.

The Qu'ran as I understand it (I am a muslim but not the only one and we don't all see things the same way) is a message from God (Allah in arabic) via His messenger (the Prophet Muhammed, may God's peace be upon him) to both the them - the people that Muhammed was living with, the early muslims and those who did not accept Islam - and us, wider humankind.

It is not a narrative although it does contain portions of narrative, for example here is a translation of the surah or chapter entitled Maryam / Mary

It also contains

• rules for living, although most of what is commonly known as shariah or islamic law comes not from the Qu'ran but from the minds of a group of men after Muhammed died.
  An example of this is in the verses that deal with inheritence and what percentages of a person's estate should be willed to whom which is quite detailed.

• reminders of the wonders of God's creation like here

It is not easy to understand and I personally think neither is it meant to be. It is a call to our free will and better selves to stir thought. Muslims see this life as a training ground for things to come, as a serious of situatiosn to test us, see how we react but also to allow us to grow spiritually. If the test and the struggle was easy then it would be meaningless.

The Quran is very easily quoted out of context in the same way as the Bible is - an eye for an eye springs to mind as an example of the latter. A lot of people (muslims too!) forget that some sections were directly applicable to Muhammad and the early muslims of that time - there are whole sections relating for example to a battle where a group of people disobeyed their commanders orders and failed to defend what they were supposed to be defending - an my they got bollocking for it :) but that is not relevant to us and was not intended for us so why dwell on it.

I and We are used interchangably for God / Allah as it is written in the first person as the words of God. Think of the 'royal we' - it is similar and neither really are true translations from the original arabic either.

He is usually Muhammad for example in these verses where Muhammed gets a bollocking from The Boss.

but there may be times when 'he' refers to someone mentioned earlier in the chapter like one of the other Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jacob, John, and Jesus to name but a few of the 25 named in the Quran.

I hope that helps a little.

"The Quran is very easily quoted out of context in the same way as the Bible is - an eye for an eye springs to mind as an example of the latter. A lot of people (muslims too!) forget that some sections were directly applicable to Muhammad and the early muslims of that time - there are whole sections relating for example to a battle where a group of people disobeyed their commanders orders and failed to defend what they were supposed to be defending - an my they got bollocking for it but that is not relevant to us and was not intended for us so why dwell on it."

Perfectly Put!

It's not the Sale translation but a slightly later one by JM Rodwell. His intro is ghastly, impenetrable Victorian pomposity, and he hasused Sale's work.

The article to which Biscuits linked is very interesting. (Haven't finished it yet.)

When you say why dwell on sections that were relevant to Muhammed in his dayand not to modern days, do you mean why should non-Muslims dwell on them, or why study them at all?

What was Muhammed before he got the call, I wonder? And how closely did he identify with the Jewish and Christian religions?

Lovely post, biscuits.

And Khadeeja had Christian relatives, I believe.
The Prophet (pbuh)'s tribe were very influential and highly thought of, the Prophet (pbuh) was ocnidered to be truthful and honest, he was called such by the people too. This is all before he received message.

Arabs were poletheists befrore the advent of Islam I believe.

Altho the Prophet(pbuh), is said to follow the God of Abraham. From what I've learnt, the religious practices and the conduct of the time did not sit well with the Prophet (pbuh) and he would take himself away from it alol and regularly go to the mountains to meditate a lot, that's where he recieved his first revelation.

The jewish and christians of that time were a lot more close to islam than the majority faith of the area, which was the polytheism that the arabs were following (idol worshipping). RasoolAllah saws (Muhammad) was not jewish or christian but he had never joined in with his people's idol worship. Like Ibrahim as (Abraham) he could have been described that he was hanif (ie a pure monotheist) before the revelation, but there was a good relationship between the early muslim and the christian community @ that time as their faiths had so much more in common than the idolitry followed by most, which is why when the first muslims did hijra to abbysinia they took shelter in a christian community, and were absolutely welcomed by those christians (i believe there is a narration whereby the christian leader of abbysinia, unfortunately forgot his name sorry!) drew a line on the ground and said the difference between us is only this much). Yes khadija ra had christian relatives, and i think one of them actually had a vision about the coming of islam, he had a dream where he saw another prophet was going to come, and when he heard about Muhammad he said yes that is him (im thinking this was waraqah? but someone correct me on that as im not sure, but it was a christian monk related to khadijah ra)

as for quran, buscuits answer is good and i think alot of people would agree with the majority of that (altho i do think there is a lot of point in studying and reading the whole quran, whether directed directly to the people of that time or not as still there is benefit in that for us!)

a good translation is muhammad abdul haleem which i think is out published by oxford? it has been made a lot more "readable" and easily understandable than some of the others, clearer and less archaic language, so may be worth a look @ that one.
also to understand it properly we look at tafsir (i believe in english its called exergesis?? ie explanation..) because when you just read it without knowledge then sometimes it can be hard to understand as its such a deep book and so many layers of wisdom to it that wont immediately strike us. of course some things are clear anyway but all of it if studied in depth can keep getting more and more layers of beauty out of it, even by just looking at the significance of one single word, or a single aspect of the grammar brings out so much. it is quite different than the bible and maybe other religious books (i dont know i havent really read the others ) in not being a straight narrative, so maybe not what you expected upon picking it up but it is something absolutely unique, and that was one of the amazing things about it @ the time, when quran was revealed people were amazed and they did not know how to classify it because its not poetry, its not prose its like a unique genre by itself and not in any way an immitation of previous scriptures that had come before

(btw sorry about my typing, hope it is still understandable as i am not a great typer)

Sorry just come back to this as have been a way for a few days.

By dwell on it I mean all of us really - I don't mean don't read it or study it or learn from it if there are lessons to be learnt - but the Qu'ran is meant to be be read altogether and in context.

Muhammad's wife Khadijah had a cousin who was a Christian priest. Muhammad was in a cave meditating when the angel Gabriel came to him and said passed to him the first of the Qu'ran that was revealed.

Muhammad was terrified and legged it back to his wife, shaking and she comforted him and calmed him down.

She then spoke to her cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal and told him what Gabriel (known as Jibreel in arabic) had said and Waraqah told her that it meant Muhammad was being called to prophethood and not to be afraid.

Khadijah is very important in the history of Islam, she was older than Muhammad and a well respected lady who employed him to help with her trading business on reommendation as he was considered so trustworthy and honest. She was so impressed by his character she asked him to marry her and when she died 20 years later he was devastated. It was only after shedied that he remarried and Khadijah was his sole wife for the whole duration of his marriage (which was quite unusual for the arab culture they lived in).

Biscuits - I am loving your contributions to this thread, am lol-ing at the 'bollocking' from the Boss' .

My favourite translation of the meaning of the Quran is Yusuf Ali's. The footnotes are really good.