Pagans and eccentricity

[Kaloki]

I'm wondering what other pagan's reactions to the more um.. eccentric members of our community are?

I used to be a member of a pagan forum but had to leave as I tended to get a little wound up by the threads where people complained about being treated as if they were strange - because they talk to "faeries" and wear crushed velvet capes on a regular basis.

Now I've never dressed in an exactly toned down way - usually tending towards goth fashion and sometimes punk. I am well used to people thinking I'm odd, if I was honestly concerned about it I'd dress "normally". But there are a lot of people in the pagan community who seem to think that when they act/dress in an unusual manner then people should treat them as if they aren't unusual in anyway, and equate it to discrimination.

In my mind discrimination is people actually being nasty, not just saying that dancing naked with a broomstick is a bit out of the ordinary. Because it is!

I also find it surprising that the only representatives the pagan community ever seems to put forward are a little bit - odd. It makes it a little difficult to be taken seriously, and does make me reluctant to admit to being pagan in public.

In my opinion paganism is, at it's most basic, nature worship, and so doesn't need all the bell, book and candle stuff. And as far as I'm concerned, a lot of the time it serves as a distraction.

I do like a lot of more "woo" stuff, but prefer to keep it separate to my belief system as I don't see the two as related.

Do you find you connect the two? Do you think that linking the more unusual practices to paganism might not exactly help it get taken seriously?

One persons' eccentricity is another's perfect normality. I have Baptist friends who think it weird that Anglian priests wear dog collars let alone the full ecclesiastical garb that the bishop turned up in.

No, of course paganism doesn't need all the trappings, but neither does any faith. I suppose the important thing is whether it helps the person who uses them. For example dressing in medieval style clothing can help you to feel connected to the wise ancestors. It's also a way of rejecting the shallower values of contemporary society.

I do have a cloak hanging in my wardrobe (linen, not crushed velvet ) but I don't wear it when I pratice. I just like to know it's there, IYSWIM. The way I practice is in fact very simple. I'm drawn to simple nature - worship? don't know if that's the right word. Communion is better - and if I do follow the craft one day it will be as a solitary hedgewitch. Personally a great deal of the ritual does not appeal to me, but I can see why it does to others. There will always be those for whom ritual is important, you see it in Catholicism too.

As for the fact that the oddballs tend to get the publicity, I don't know that thsi is true. The druid at Stonehenge gets interviewed because of what he has to say. And I saw a very interesting piece on Newsnight with Emma Restall Orr recently about the campaign to get the bones of pagans that are in museums reburied with respect. She's not eccentric and it was a great interview.

I think we live in a society that expects tolerance. So whilst I don't think people should have to think anything is 'normal', I do think that people of any faith are reasonable to expect people to keep their mouths shut rather than be told they are 'weird'.

Hi kaloki, i think i understand where you are coming from. I think it's just horses for courses iyswim.

I think the thing that puts me personally off all the robes and stuff is that i can barely be bothered getting dressed in the morning anyway! I'm just not that interested in clothes etc. There is a concious part of me that knows the outfits are really importan for some people in terms of creating a mood and focus etc. But there is another part of me that is a bit about it. Ditto ritual etc. Partly because i know they have been made up by someone at some point so seem a bit fake to me. But i know this isn't important to some people as they like the structure and pattern of ritual and are not so concerned by provenance. As these things are what people often think of when they hear the term pagan i often just avoid discussion of my beliefs in rl, as i think what they'll imagine isn't representative of my more lax freeform version of paganism. And therefore the stereotype goes unquestioned because i can't face it. This is an aspect of my self i'm not happy with tbh. But i am aware of more of my own emotional intelligence weaknesses that i think are in more urgent need of tackleing iyswim. God that sounds like a cop out.

Now i think about it maybe this is why i haven't joined anything pagan related. At the moment pagan is some thing i feel i am. I think i fear that if i met lots of other pagans i might start to define myself by what i am not, ie, how i differ from them. Don't know if that makes sense.

It does make sense, that's kind of how I feel.

spiritmum I don't think they should accept nasty things being said, far from it. I just don't see how you can actively distance yourself from what is considered normal and then complain when people then find it unusual, if that makes sense?

I do understand, Kaloki, but I'm not sure that many pagans try to behave in a way that is not 'normal', but rather they behave in a way that is true for them. That's not quite the same thing as dressing or behaving outside the norm for its own sake. It may be that what is true for them also happens to be far removed from what is considered normal, but that isn't their motivation for doing so. Being perceived as 'different' is a by-product of being authentically who they are.

Does that make sense?

That said, when it comes to ritual and rules about what to wear and all the rest, I know it isn't for me. It's not so much that it seems fake, because some people need an dindeed thrive on a great deal of ritual, you see it in every religious practice. For me it is because I come from a Christian background and have had my fill of anything remotely organised. It's why I don't even use the label 'pagan' very often because it immediately sets up ideas about what I should and shouldn't be and do. And I know that some of my Christian friends find it a bit . The thing is, as soon as I say 'I am this' and you are something different, we notice our separateness. And as soon as we do that we sow the seeds for war at some level.

Yet, paradoxically, we are all unique and will all want to express that in ways that are true to the stories we tell ourselves about who we are. So I think it's more about suspending judgement about why other people look and act why they do - which is always subjective on our part anyway - and seeing beyond to the oneness that is in everyone.

Makes perfect sense, as I say, I tend to dress "goth" because that's me. And I feel wrong if I dress normally - like I'm in costume. However I'm well aware I can't act surprised when other people find it odd. Which I find some pagans to tend to do - at least on the forums I've been on.

I think you're description of how you feel is very much the same as mine. Doing all the rituals makes me feel like a child play acting - which I guess is why I find it a little odd in others. Though on previous pagan forums I seemed to be in the minority on this.

It might be easier for me to understand because my background on my mum's side is RC - lots of bells and smells - so I grew up with a love of ritual around me. And as an Anglican I'd participate in the ritual of Communion each week. So although my rituals are low-key and very informal, I do understand the need to formalise it in others.

And there's a need to belong for some people, too. Dressing a certain way and joining a set ritual gives a sense of belonging and community.

That makes sense :)

I love the fact that people dress as they want, tending towards the hippy myself. But as spiritmum said, that is me expressing how I feel good about myself. I try to buy clothes that won't date so I can continue to wear them for as long as possible.

I understand what you mean though as it does seem to me that some people are more concerned with the trappings than the practice or heart of their spirituality, a bit, 'Look at Me', as we cal them.

However, each to their own

This thread has made me think of an article I read - probabby in Pagan Dawn but it could have sbeen somewhere else - by a guy who sometimes travelled by train with his two teenage daughters to a big ritual in London dressed in full garb including cloaks and athames. He was talking about raising awareness of Wicca and getting it accepted into mainstream life, and I guess if they'd been kitted out in t-shirt and jeans nobody would have noticed!

He did say though that athames are probably no longer acceptable on public transport!

I do usually change my clothes if I am having 'sacred time' but usually for yoga pants and a tunic or vest top.

Earthymama, I totally agree about buying good quality clothes that won't date.

(I am sometimes found on the s&b topic )

"He was talking about raising awareness of Wicca and getting it accepted into mainstream life"

Although I can see how dressing that way would raise awarenenss of it, I don't think it will make it more accepted. I think talking about it in "normal" clothes would make it more accepted.

Most people have strange misconceptions of paganism and find it hard to get over those without adding more layers of what they'd see as weirdness to the mix.

They can dismiss the comments of the more eccentrically dressed without a thought.

Kaloki, I think his point was that you can't just start up a conversation about religious and spiritual matters with people if you are just dressed in normal stuff. By looking different he could engage people and talk to them about what he was and believed. He obviously belonged to a coven for whom full kit was the way to do things - yes, he could have travelled incognito as it were but then that would have been keeping it all secret and behind closed doors. If paganism is ever going to lose its negative image (in some quarters) of being dangerous and exploitative then it has to be out in the open.

Yes, you may get noticed regardless of how you look if you write lots of books and become a spokesperson for paganism, and you may get an interview on television, but it's unlikely to be prime time and may go unnoticed. I guess this guy had found a way to talk to the bloke on the bus (or train!) and maybe break down a few barriers.

i have no doubt that this man had the best of intentions. And i feel, like kaloki i think, that he is reinforcing peoples stereotypes. It may be a way to strike up conversation on public transport but i don't think that many people take well to conversation from strangers under those circumstances any way, and this may even further reinforce their ideas.

Having said that i would never suggest that he should change in to regular clothes for other peoples bennefit. He must do what he is comfortable with obv.

I think that as with many people there are a silent, perhaps majority? That don't attempt to attract attention and this sets up a dichotomy. Self selection wil always be an issue in raising awareness. Personally i'm not on any kind of mission, not that that would be a bad thing, i just have my own practice that i continue in private. But i would like to be able to be more active in public places eg, when making offerings, than i feel i can currently. I know this is hypocritical. I'm not sure what i'd do about it other than what i do now (speak to close friends about it and do stuff in public when i get my brave up [coward emoticon] )

I think from what I remember ths guy's main issue was being himself in public. The fact that he was raising awareness wasn't his motivation but was somethng that arpose out of that, and the fact he could then talk to people about what he did was a bonus. But equally he was able to show that beneth the garb is a normal person.

If people have beliefs about stereotypes then that is their problem. We don't suggest that muslim women should abandon the veil in order to avoid being stereotyped, nor priests their dog collars. Although some do, sadly, in order to be safe from being attacked.

And Kaloki, as someone who wears goth gear you must have come across prejudice for that too? I know I did as a teen, and there was that poor girl who paid with her life for staying true to who she was not so long ago. So I guess the question is, what kind of society do we want? One where difference is tolerated, or one where we need to conform in order to keep those with prejudices happy?

I'm not sure about the idea that peoples ideas about stereotypes are their problem. Because really it affects all off us doesn't it? Not to somehow say i'm exempt from this. We all do it don't we? I think it's more a matter of being aware of prejudice so we can challenge it in ourself or others.

(completely off topic, spiritmum. I hope you are ok with me. i'm worried i upset you the other day by trying to dig myself into a hole push my point. I have a lot of respect for you and really wouldn't want to do that. I'm sorry if i did. )

MFM, I can't think of anything you can possibly have said to upset me and if I've ever given you that impression then I'm sorry. I just thought we'd been having some interesting conversations!

With regard to stereotypes and prejudice, I see what you mean about it affecting us all, but it is still the problem of the person judging if they believe in negative stereotypes. We don't look at racists throwing bricks at Muslim women in their veils and their children and think that the women and children are the ones who need to change something. Yes, the guy on the train could have worn his civvies. But that does nothing to dispell the myth that you can judge someone by how they dress. For some the stereotype will be challenged by dressing 'normally', but it seems to me to be equally legitimate to say, I might dress in a different way but I am the same as you underneath.

I know exactly what you mean about being brave though. I offered to talk to dd1's class about the Goddess and the wheel of the year when they were learning about envirnment and religion, and I wasn't allowed to. I should have made a fuss but because this is a church-dominated village I didn't want this to have repercussions for the dc. Plenty of people still believe that all paganism is about is naked orgies and even child abuse (being pagan has been used as 'evidence' in custody cases and parents have also been reprted to SS for it and I just didn't feel I could risk it.

and that paganism has been seen as reason to report to ss. I completely understand your decision not to kick up a fuss for what it's worth. I would feel the same. But it is sad that the school didn't seize the opportunity you were offering.

I completly agree with what you're saying the problem lays with the racist (in the example you give) but it is a problem for the woman and children iyswim. (Semantics really i think.) We could all be in her position so the problem of the stereotyper can easily become a problem for us. Does that make sense? I think we agree but i'm just struggling with the words. I think that's why i feel it's important to challenge stereotype. I might not be as bothered if the bad uns just stayed at home thinking ill. It's when they act on their prejudice that it becomes a problem.

I'm glad i haven't upset you. You have no need to apologise.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. The prejudices of others put people at risk. But the prejudices aren't dealt with by anyone (Muslim, Pagan, Priest, Hare Krishna, Goth, TV/TS, whatever) conforming to the norm. It might make the individual safer but it does nothing to make us a more tolerant society.

And I think the guy in the robes is challenging the stereotype just as much as the urban witch in the power suit, if only because he got the chance to talk to people rather than hide away behind closed doors. And the urban witch is much more likely to be asked where she gets her shoes than what a pentacle means. Nothing wrong with that, but unless she's very open and up front about her beliefs then most people will never know.

I used to lurk on the BBC's pagan board and on there most people were of the 'no robes' pov. Most also wouldn't wear pagan jewellery. I do though, quite often, but I rarely get comments. I wear it for me, and no other reason.

I'm still a bit that you thought you'd upset me, I take a lot of upsetting tbh and tend not to bother with it as it's so draining!

Was it the bf thread where someone said something about formula companies being like arsm dealers? I did say I found what they said offensive, but mainly because I know how sensitive some mnetters are about nit being able to bfeed and comments like that just heap the pain on. But that wasn't you and I can't think of anything else. I will have to be more careful how I write things!

I don't think they should change, just be aware that it makes it harder for people who aren't that way inclined themselves to identify with.

it was the thread where i tried to explain that if i was queen of the world i would provide every woman that wanted to bf with her own personal army of bfcs/hcps/general helpmeets/chauffers/private jet/magic wand/spaghetti tree etc so she would be given every possible chance of bfing. Only they weren't my exact words. I think those ones might have been preferable.

Nope, MFM, nowt to offend me there whatsoever.

Ther are bf threads - and indeed ff threads - where I know not to tread because it will always end in tears - there' sone at the moment I believe. But I thought your thread was a pretty nice one, tbh. I might have left it a bit abruptly though as I am too busy to keep up with everything atm (which is why I haven't posted on the pagan interest thread for a while - I will when I get a clear moment to concentrate.) We've all got colds and I've got sinusitis, dd1 has been off since Thursday, dd2 since Friday and ds today.

Mnet can get very intense and as soon as I see a thread on anything going that way I hide it. So not worth it.

That's a very good attitude to it all spiritmum. There are a lot of emotive issues on here for sure.

Hope you all feel better soon.

Thanks, MFM, we're on the mend - dd2 is still off but otherwise things are getting better.

It's not just that subjects can be emotive, but because this is the net people express opinions that they never would to your face.

Sample:

Mnetter: All formula is junk.

Me: but my dd1 would have died with out it.

Mnetter: I don't care, it's still junk.

I try to steer clear of anything that requires me to state an opinion, or if I do think I really have to I say my piece as nicely as possible then hide it!

But then I've been here a loooooooong time and had my fingers burnt quite a lot in the early days.