"The Holy Spirit" - a question

[oxocube]

Today I went to an 'introduction to Alpha' meeting. The course starts in 2 weeks and I am interested/looking forward to it and have done lots of googling including searches on Mumsnet about what to expect. I am a bit confused by people who say that they struggle with the part on the course where they are asked to invite the Holy Spirit into their hearts even though many of these people say they are Christians.

Am I missing something or misunderstanding something here? I always thought the Holy Spirit is God/Jesus and that inviting the Holy Spirit would simply be welcoming Christ into your life. There seems to be the implication that something spooky/weird/absurd is going on, especially on the weekend retreat part of the course. Can anyone enlighten me as to this part of the Alpha course? I am a Christian, albeit it a fairly recent convert.

Thank you

Hi Oxo - very briefly cos I'm cooking dinner :)

Firstly, and down to basics, the Holy Spirit is one part of the Trinity - God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are one God but three different 'elements'.

My interpretation is that the HS is the part of God that lives inside each of us, and helps us to 'know' him - the part we can listen to for guidance. Before his death Jesus spoke of a 'special helper' that he would send to be with the apostles and all his followers to help them in their mission. This 'helper' came in the unexpected for of the HS, which came upon a crowd gathered in the form of 'tongues of flame' and a great wind - the crowd began to speak in tongues (sorry for scant details - the story is in the book of Acts if you want to look it up).

I think the problem that some people have had with Alpha is that some providers of the course place a great deal of emphasis on this 'dynamic' experience of the HS and there can be an expectation that you should experience some 'change' or physical manifestation of the HS, eg speaking in tongues.

However, other providers may see the issue in less evangelical terms and talk about experiencing the HS in a more private, personal way (as I described at the beginning).

HTH a bit? Sorry, a bit rushed! Someone will come by and talk much more sense later on, I'm sure! :)

As MrsC says - I think it really depends on who leads the course as to how it is pitched.

The experience of the first Christians described in Acts was that the Holy Spirit did come to live in them when they believed, with one or two unusual occurrences where He seemed to come as a second stage as the gospel first spread. But it's not clear that every person experienced the dynamic manifestations. In 1 Corinthians, Paul refers to speaking in tongues etc more than any of them to try and get them to understand that it shouldn't be a source of pride and that the gifts of the Spirit are to build love and hope in believers, not divide. So he definitely suggests focusing on the much less 'public' gifts of the Spirit.

Some people running Alpha seem to push them (tongues / interpretation / falling over etc) as the only proof of really having Him living inside you, whereas the Bible would say if you believe and trust in Jesus, He has already come to live in you. So I guess it's a case of wait and see how the course you're on is, and don't be discouraged or made to feel 'not quite all there' if you don't experience particular gifts.

Really hope you enjoy the course and getting to find out more of your faith.

Hi All,

Food for thought maybe... I once had a christian meditation teacher (who new his bible and also was a yoga master) who thought that holy spirit was somewhat analogous to 'chi' or 'prana' in chinese / indian spriritual traditions - these concepts and holy spirit relate to positive loving energy being moved around in some way. Interestingly, chi is also translated as 'breath' and many people visual chi as 'light'. Food for thought I guess!

I meant to also add that 'light' and 'breath of life' obviously have deep meaning in christianity.

cockneydad That's interesting as that's more or less how I see it too :)

Oh thank you all for taking the trouble to reply . I knew that the Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Trinity but you have made clearer the 'speaking in tongues', some people's expectations of Alpha etc!

When I am in church I feel an overwhelming sense of calm and peace and love. Would I be right in assuming that this is the Holy Spirit working in me? I can't imagine myself falling over or shouting out to God on the Alpha weekend though. I think/hope God will work in me in a much more private/discreet way

Very interesting cockneydad

Yes, I would say so Oxo - it sounds precisely how the Holy Spirit works!

I think God is pretty discreet in this country... I mean - speaking in tongues? outward displays of emotion? It's just not British, is it?!

Oxo - I went through this years ago, before Alpha was invented, but associate very much with your feelings. It helped my prayer life immensely: I used to pray fervently in Church that God wouldn't ask me to do anything unbritish, as MrsC calls it!

I agree with all of the postings below, and know now that a loving God will not make you do anything that is not right for you. He knows how you feel.

Becoming a Chritian is completely about accepting Christ as your saviour. Any work of the Holy Spirit which follows is to bring glory to Him. For some people that may mean speaking in tongues (usually quietly, in this country, but some people do get v, enthusiastic about it!) but for others, it is simply a reassuring sense of God's presence near to you, within you, comforting/reassuring/empowering you.

Although it seemed scary in prospect, I wouldn't have missed this first encounter with the Holy Spirit for the world. For me it was about offering myself to God in a new way - I allowed him into more parts of my life than when I first became a Christian, and felt a new closeness to Him. Paul says that this experience is available to all christians and can be experienced regularly - it's not a once-for-all step, like becoming a Christian, it's learning a way of praying, a way of being that can help you to know God's presence with you.

Hi oxocube. I also did Alpha and became a Christian during the course, about ten years ago. I would agree with what other posters have said about the Holy Spirit being the breath of God. I have also heard it (him? her?) described as the fire of God. Like a boiler where the pilot light is lit. Once you have invited the Trinity into your heart and life, you will always have that pilot light. Sometimes it will be stronger, sometimes you will feel weak and wonder about your faith, but that pilot light is always on, even if you can't feel the heat all the time. Um, bit rambly but HTH. Will post more later, about to go on my break at work.

oxocube, how you describe the HS is how I experience the HS, together with sometimes a feeling of inexpressible joy. I went to an evangelical meeting once, where I was the only one who didn't fall over, and I certainly didn't speak in tongues, like so many people did, but I am more than OK with that, because that is NOT how God works in me or speaks to me. Speaking in tongues ISN'T for everyone, as it says in the bible.

Thanks everyone. Comtessa, I LOVE the way you describe the HS - like a pilot light that never goes out. A beautiful (and very practical!) way of expressing what I have recently come to feel.

I'm also experiencing (and I hope this isn't irreverent here as I certainly don't mean it to be) something which is a bit like falling in love .

You know the feeling in the early stages of a relationship where you want to be with someone/talk about them/ think about them all the time. And where you can't think of your future without them? Sometimes I think I am going little bit mad and I can't quite believe what has happened to me as its so illogical. But it feels fabulous

I know EXACTLY what you mean. Falling in love can feel like meeting someone you've known forever. Opening up your life to God is meeting someone who has known you forever. Nothing irreverent about that.
So happy for you. Keep feeding the fire with fuel (prayer, fellowship, scripture etc).

There's an song I love which uses the following words:

I am the great Sun, but you do not see me.
I am your Husband, but you turn away.
I am the Captive, but you do not free me.
I am the Captain you will not obey.
I am the Truth, but you will not believe me.
I am the City, where you will not stay.
I am your Wife, your Child, but you will leave me.
I am that God, to whom you will not pray.
I am your Counsel, but you do not hear me.
I am the Lover, whom you will betray.
I am the Victor, but you do not cheer me.
I am the Holy Dove, whom you will slay.
I am your Life, but you will not name me.
Seal up your soul with tears and never blame me.

For me it sums up God's love and searching for his children, and his hurt when we turn away from, but also the everlasting nature of his love and compassion for us, no matter how often we've turned away before.

Anyway, sorry, totally missed the point of your original post! Here's my (not necessarily scripturally-based) thinking.

God knows you. God made you. He knows your strengths, weaknesses, fears etc. He will be with you to strengthen you and guide you. The Holy Spirit gives gifts (fruit of the spirit)

Galatians 5.22-23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

Speaking in tongues can be a sign of being filled with the Spirit, but even the apostle Paul says that it's not always helpful or useful, as it only edifies the speaker, unless there is someone who can translate!

HTH.

Away weekend should be about encouraging you to be open to the Holy Spirit, rather than "and this is what needs to happen to you". The day retreat I did focussed mostly on discussion and prayer.

Right, am off to hijack someone else's thread now

Hi, Oxo, pretty much agree with Cockneydad, but that's not a point of view I'd say out loud at Alpha

Hmm. Well, my experience of Alpha is limited but I did once have a priest (liberal Anglo-Catholic in theology) who was amazing; just the most spirit-filled person I knew, he inspired us all. At his old parish (before he came here) a crowd from HTB (Alpha HQ) went to his church for a 'Holy Spirit' weekend. When it because apparent that people weren't about to start speaking in tongues they blamed this priest for 'blocking the Holy Spirit'. He was also told that he 'wasn't a true Christian' because 'he has never experienced the Holy Spirit'. Shortly after that he was asked to leave that particular church.

Hopefully your Alpha teacher will not expect such a demonstration.

I can't ever remember not experiencing the Holy Spirit. I might not subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity but the Spirit is something that I see and feel...and no, I do not speak in tongues. And I'm not a Christian.

I remember feeling as you do, the falling in love thing. Enjoy it.

Agree entirely with cockneydad too, and no reason why that shouldn't be brought up at Alpha. After all, to inspire means (archaicly) "To breathe life into" and the very word spirit comes from the same root.

Comtessa, I hope you're right . An Evangelical church not far from me banned yoga and meditation classes from its church hall because they were 'unchristian', and I myself was banned from giving Reiki healing sessions to mums at my local church-run toddler group, so I tend to err on the side of caution.

Actually, a very good friend who introduced me to the church I go to now was told that she could continue with Reiki only if it was done in God's name. The same friend was very into self-help and 'visualisation' and was told that this was against church doctrine. Fortunately, she says she has found all the help she needs in God

Our church is Pentacostal/Evangelical

Oxo, glad that your friend can still use Reiki. I invoke Jesus Christ whenever I use Reiki but no-one bothered to ask me what I thought about where Reiki comes from. The assumption was that it was from 'somewhere other than God' .

That said, I'm both and that your friend was told not to use self-help and visualization. There is nothing in church doctrines that bans either. Visualization can be creative (which is the kind athletes or singers use before a big performance or event) or guided (which is the 'imagine you are on a dusty road' kind of thing.) The first simply wires the brain for a good performance. The second is really useful for gaining insight and I've seen it used loads of times in a Christian setting. A typical example would be to get a group of people at Bible study or prayer group to visualise that they are walking to Emmaus when 'the stranger' appears and starts talking to them. Each person has to imagine what Jesus would have to say to them, and how they feel when they finally realise who he is. It's a really good way to identify issues around faith, your past, problems that you have now, all kinds of things, and get insight as to how to deal with them.

That said, visualization is sometimes used in Cosmic Ordering/Law of Attraction which can appear to resemble witchcraft to some extent so I can see why that might make church leaders warn someone off CO and LOA. But normal visualization? No.

As for self-help books, there are some which are very Christian (the Rob Parsons book sspring to mind) and those which have no religion at all (Michael Neill's for example). There really isn't anything in any of them which can be called unchristian and I would question why a church would tell people not to read material which may make them more self-reliant.

I'm glad for your friend...God sometimes works in ways we don't always expect. Have you heard the old joke about the man who is drowning? A boat comes past and someone throws him a line, but he says, no, don't worry, God will save me. Next a big ship comes, but again he says, no, don't worry, God will save me. Finally a helicopter flies over and they throw down a winch. No, no, he says, God will save me.

Eventually the man drowns. He gets to heaven and says to God, why didn't you save me? God replies, I sent a boat, a ship and a helicopter, what more did you want?

Interestingly enough Spiritmum, I go to a Saturday morning service, the priest that leads the worship is a professor of divinity and published feminist theologian, but she usually says to me after we've had a chat "must dash, got to go to my yoga class" :o

What is meant by visualisation anyhow? I'm very visual when it comes to worship and prayer, and like all the symbols, but I can certainly say in my heart of hearts there is no idolatry in what I do/use.

MaryBS, I think my friend was very interested in someone called Louise Hay who talks about visualising what you want as if you already have it. Don't know much about her myself - maybe it is a bit 'magicky' IYSWIM. I seem to remember that Ms Hay had cancer and imagined her body healing itself and she made a full recovery. Or maybe I have over-simplified that.

Oxo, Louise Hay belonged to the Christian Science church at one time, which believes that the body gets sick because of the thoughts that we hold in it, and that by changing our thoughts we can heal. She was raped as a child and later developed a gynae cancer, and she healed her body through releasing her anger against the man who raped her and the other abuse she'd suffered (mostly at the hands of her stepfather - she had a shocking upbringing) and, crucially, forgiving them. She places huge importance on loving the self, and nurturing your inner child, because a great deal of our negative beliefs about ourselves are sown in childhood.

There's nothing 'magic' about it; studies have shown that by using affirmations the synapses in the brain can be rewired and that does produce physical change. But it is very much about healing yourself and being active in that rather than taking a back seat and letting it happen. That said, most people who use Louise Hay's methods to heal themselves do so alongside conventional medicine. It can also be used to help relationships, careerr etc. There is nothing she teaches that goes against Christianity.

But Christian science isn't popular in mainstream Christian circles. I'm not sure if Louise Hay is still a memeber or not but that is where she developed her ideas.

Very interesting. Thank you spiritmum. My friend had cancer herself and sometimes talked about the fact that she 'allowed' her cancer to grow or that she 'invited it in' through negative thought patterns or failing to let go of things which happened in the past. It used to really upset me to hear her talk like this.

Out of interest (and probably another thread entirely), why is Christian Science unpopular in mainstream Christianity? (Off now to do some googling when I really should be doing some work!)

Well, Oxo, as you've probably found the CS church has very different ideas about the Trinity and the nature of both Jesus and The Christ.

Personally I believe that the mainstream church is based very much on the subjective experiences of people which then got enshrined as infallible doctrine (I've just been reading Elaine Pagels on this and very interesting she is too). So although the revelations to Mary Eddy might not fit with the Nicene creed as such I don't believe her church to be any less valid, although its beliefs are not for me.

Incidentally in the US Christian Science children can opt out of certain science lessons in school, dissection being one of them. Can't remember why though.

One thing I find very interesting is that (according to Doreen Virtue, another prominent CS adherent) the way to pray isn't to ask in the hope of receiving but to give thanks for prayer already answered. So for example if you needed a job, you could visualise exactly what you needed in terms of working hours, salary, commute etc, an dthen give thanks to God because it is already on its way. I find I actually like this way of praying because it takes away the sense of desperation and the negative feelings. I do very often leave it to God as to how things show up though, esp,. when praying for someone else.

As for your friend, I can understand why that upset you. I do believe that unresolved issues can manifest later as stress-related illness, but no more than that. That said, I also believe that a positive outlook speeds healing beyond that which the medical profession can understand, and that has to start with believing that you're okay as a human being. Dr David Hamilton has written some books on the science behind what Louise Hay teaches - it seems that the scientific community are catching her up in some respects.