Please help me feel better about this

[ZincandCastor]

Just checking name change

I am not sure anyone can make me feel better about this, but really feel like I need to write it down. I have deliberately posted here and not in miscarriage as I would hate to upset anyone else. I feel so shocked and tearful (have been crying on and off for last few days.)

A few years ago, I had an ectopic pregnancy and trophoblastic tissue disease. The site was never identified - definitely wasn't tubal - but I had odd blood results and was in severe pain. On the advice of a consultant, I was treated several times with methotrexate. I was advised that a) surgery would involve a huge incision as they were uncertain of positioning, b) probable secondary infertility/massive increased risk of further ectopic c) would probably need to be followed up with methotrexate anyway. I was also told that with my blood results, a watch and wait approach was inadvisable and could result in rupture and possibly me dying.

As a (not very good) catholic, I struggled massively with the idea that I was "killing" my "baby" and asked the consultant to state categorically that this was not what I was doing. He was able to confirm that I did not have an ongoing pregnancy and that my bloods showed that even if it was intrauterine it had no chance of survival. Whilst I have grieved long and hard, and taken a long time to put the experience behind me physically and emotionally, I never felt that I had done anything "wrong" in the decisions I made.

While reading the Ectopic Pg website the other day (they have relaunched it so was sent a link), a paragraph caught my eye, that stated some Catholics believe treating an ectopic to be abortion. I was so sure that this wasn't true that I googled it, and to my horror found masses of evidence to prove that in the eyes of the Catholic church, I have committed a banned act and should be excommunicated. Some of the websites were horrible and made me feel so guilty about the choices I made. I no longer feel able to go to a church. I don't want to talk to anyone in RL in case they make me feel even worse

Sorry it's so long, thank you for getting this far!

Hi

I'm not a Catholic but have recently "come back" to God, as for a long time I blamed him for not saving my mum from dying. I started attending the church where my kids did Boys Brigade and when my DS2 got baptised, I really felt something in me move.

I firmly believe that you can read anything into the Bible, anything people say can be taken the wrong way and you need to just listen to your heart and know that what you did was for reasons only you can justify. You know that it was the right thing to do and googling things like that will tear you apart and make you lose faith.

I'm sure that God knows why you did what you did and the God I've been talking to a lot recently about my very sick Dad wouldn't judge you (IMHO), he's too special.

Maybe talk to someone in RL too. Maybe not a priest(?) because you may get the "hell and damnation" speech and I really don't think you deserve it. You didn't go out (like in the papers today), rob an old man and kill him, leaving him to die. You made a decision, you didn't make it lightly and I think you need to think hard about it. You sound like you're tearing yourself apart over something that however much you want to, can't be changed now so start looking ahead. Take a step, a day at a time and just talk to God, your God, not the one who lives on websites ready to condemn you.

I hope you find peace and clarity. x

God is Love. Love is compassion. Be compassionate with yourself.

You didn't do anything wrong - you said yourself you didn't feel it was wrong. You did what was medically right and safe and sensible to do. If others believe it to be wrong thanks to some mad, twisted logic, then that's up to them, but trust me, you've not done anything wrong, banned or worthy of excommunication. If your heart told you it was the right thing to do, then the love in your heart chose for you. And God is Love, so he was with you in that decision, OK?

Please, don't feel bad. Be kind to yourself. God would.
x

Blimey, poor you. I'm sorry you had such a traumatic experience.

I'm not religious, but didn't want to leave you unanswered. I think it would be ludicrous to suggest you've done anything morally 'wrong'. Your own health was at risk, and sadly you did not have a viable pregnancy. Tragically, no decision you could have made would have allowed your embryo to survive.

You've rationalised your own decision, and reconciled it with your moral framework. No-one could accuse you of being feckless, thoughtless or cruel. You obviously thought very carefully about the decision you made and did so on sound medical advice.

TBH I do have issues about the catholic church/other organised religions making women feel guilty about their own decisions over their own bodies - and in my (atheist) opinion I think if there's anything sinful happening here it's that. However, even though I don't share your religious beliefs, I'm certain that there are many, many people of a more moderate religous persuasion than these sites you've visited who'll be able to reassure you that your actions don't (and shouldn't) stand in contradiction to your faith.

I wish you well, and hope you are able to feel peaceful about the very sad - but unavoidable - thing that happened to you.

I am so sorry that you are feeling so upset at the moment. I would stress at the outset that I am not catholic, and have no strong religious views... but surely if your own life was at risk, and the pregnancy was non-viable, then there can be absolutely no blame or guilt attached to your treatment.

I do hope that you can see that you took the right (and only) course of action open to you. Is there anyone you can talk to face to face?

As with all things, Google is not the ultimate authority! Doctrine is very complicated, and anyone can post on the internet even if they have no specialist knowledge. Surely it will differ according to interpretation as it's not straightforward. Can you talk to your priest about it?

ZincandCastor, I'm so, so sorry for what you're going through.

I'm so sorry that all of this has has happened to you.

I am a Catholic, and made my confirmation at 26. The nice thing about doing it as an adult was that I got to ask all the tricky questions.

The thing that is often forgotten about the church, both by people on the inside and the outside, is that we aren't expected to blindly follow the teachings of either our priest, or our Pope or our Church. We aren't. They are our teachers and our guides, but the number 1 rule is that we follow our own consciences.

I have heard the church rules on contraception, on abortion, and on homosexuality. I have heard their reasons behind them. I cannot reconcile my conscience to them. I'm glad that there are wise teachers within the church who I have been able to discuss these things with and though they have not agreed with me, they respected my right to disagree. We're not as uncommon as you might think.

There is a sense that Catholics believe that church should come above all things, and there are some Catholics, both lay people and priests who think that way too.

I don't. I think that God and Christ should be above all things. I do not believe that Christ would think it acceptable that the Church, or people working in His name have made you feel the way you do now. I do not believe that He would want people to turn on people the way that happens so often now, without thinking, without considering, without showing compassion; just judgement.

I'm so, so sorry that feel the way you do right now. I can't offer any help or advice. I still attend Church, even though I disagree with many of their edicts. It still feels like home to me; I like the connection I feel to God and Christ there. I'm not ashamed of myself, I'm not secretive about it - I tell all who ask my opinions, my thoughts and what my conscience tells me. It might be that I come across a priest at some point who does not feel able to serve communion to me, but that hasn't happened yet.

I know there might be other Catholics (and people of other faiths) reading this who may be of the opinion that I'm therefore not really a Catholic. I'm OK with that; my feeling is that it's between me, God, and my Priest and they can judge away.

Once again, my sympathies to you.

Oh, and on a scientific point, I think those Catholics are wrong anyway; I don't think you have killed a baby. Arguably if you hadn't accepted the treatment, you'd have been opting for suicide.

Thank you all for reading, and for your kind, thoughtful and swift replies.

I really, really don't feel strong enough to talk to anyone in person right now. I read loads of links - all of which were in agreement - and I just couldn't take someone condemming me face to face.

It seems that theologically (iykwim), surgery to remove a tube would be acceptable, but surgery to just remove an ectopic would not, and neither is treatment with drugs. Given that my ectopic was not in a tube, I would have had to have taken the wait and see approach, potentially dying as a result.

It was the worst time of my life, I was v ill, in so much pain, and desperately distressed about the loss of my pregnancy. I ached to be pregnant and will miss that baby forever. It makes me shake to know that I am seen to be such a bad person and that my decisions are deemed mprally reprehensible.

I cannot see a way that I will feel comfortable in church again. I feel I have failed my children as I cannot fulfil the promises I made when they were baptised

You have done nothing wrong: would you want to have deprived your children of their mother by dying?
Wurzelboot's answer is very good and you should not beat yourself up over this. jesus would wrp His arms around you and comfort you in the grievous loss of your pregnancy. He would not condemn you for choosing to stay alive to look after your other children.
You can fulfill the promises you made on their baptism by being a good and king and thoughtful mother.
I do hope that eventually you will be able to accept that you are totally blameless in this matter and that you will feel strong enough to accept the comfort that being part of a church family can give you.

I am also a Catholic (like WorzelBoot I have some differences of opinion on some issues), and I think you have done nothing that your conscience should be troubled about. I am sure that most Catholics would feel the same way I do, and that most Catholic women would have made the same choice.

I agree we shouldn't do 'theology by google' but I found a couple of articles which I guess are the ones you read, and they seem to draw on just one authority, which in any case assumes that the location of the pregnancy is in a fallopian tube. Your situation was dfferent, so please don't judge yourself because of what you've read.

Oh I feel so sad for you that I cried reading your post,you sound such a kind and thoughtful person.I do not see how the medical decisions over your treatment could be viewed as taking a life or on a par with abortion.I am not RC but I have strong misgivings about abortion,and I feel you have done nothing other than the absolutely right thing.An ectopic untreated can be fatal.So if you had denied treatment would that be viewed as a suicide and therefore the sin of self murder?The pregnancy wasn't viable and you were,that is all there is to it.I am glad you are still here and sorry that you lost the baby,but I couldn't believe in any God that would judge you for this.I hope you feel able to come to terms with your grief over this and that you are able to see that you did the only possible thing.

Just wanted to offer you sympathy for your pain and your loss.

From what I can see, you did everything you could, prior to the operation, to ensure you were conforming to the beliefs of the RCC - to the extent of speaking to the surgeon to ask him to state categorically you were not killing a baby. He gave you this assurance. Even leaving out the debate of whether it is right or wrong to have an operation for an ectopic pregnancy, I don't see how the church can blame you for this.

Thank you all for taking so much time and thought to post here. It is reassuring to know that others' thought processes are similar to mine or can see how I got where I did and that makes me feel less alone.

Wurzel and Matsikula - I stated I was a not very good catholic as I also am unable to subscribe to certain elements of current church thinking but do see Wurzel that I am calling myself that as I think that is how others may see me (quite apart from what people would think of me in the light of my treatment etc)

Sticky I am sorry to hear about your parents.

Thank you all for such warmth and consideration - I feel shocked and bewildered almost and your kindness has helped more than you'll know.

Hello, I am so sorry.

I was raised an Anglican and although there is no clear 'teaching' on this, when I studied ethics the group I was with concluded that it could be considered 'worse' in a situation like this, where your baby was beyond hope but you might die, to refuse treatment. You'd effectively be taking your own life by doing so, whereas by accepting treatment you are saving life, preserving life, honouring it. And in God's eyes your life is just as precious.

Zinc please try and realise that not one single denomination has it right. God is love and compassion and healing.

Take comfort that you will all be together again in heaven with God for eternity. You had no choice you had to have the treatment.

If you don't feel you can talk this through with a priest yet perhaps try a minister from a different denomination so you know you won't receive criticism from the "religion" I really truly do not believe that there would be any condemnation from God for it.

Great post Wurzel.

I have read a lot about Catholics and the pro-life movement and I have NEVER EVER heard that a life-threatening ectopic pregnancy is at all similar to a termination.

Please don't berate yourself over this.

I'm sure you will be able to talk face to face with someone over this soon.

And, yes, you are very precious...

Zinc, I am not a Catholic, but just as CarGirl says no one denomination has everything right. IMO part of the problem with the strict approach that some wings of the Catholic church take, is that there is this belief of the infallibility of the Pope overhanging everything. So in a way you are not even allowed any sort of normal questioning, you are simply told 'This is a heinous sin because the Pope said so. He's always right and you should feel guilty for having committed this sin'. Where is the humanity in that? The Pope, for one thing, is as human and fallible as the rest of us.

Does this overbearing emphasis on guilt fit with the image of a God who is overflowing with unending love, compassion and forgiveness? In your case, you had an operation to save your own life. What is there even to be forgiven? You have done nothing wrong. It is not God who wants you to feel bad for having this operation, it is some (sadly, many) church leaders who seek to control you rather than allowing you your God-given freedom.

Have you heard of a priest called Richard Rohr? I don't know his views on issues of fertility, but he is a refreshingly thoughtful, real and open-minded voice in the Catholic church. Whenever you get a chance, why don't you look into some of his material - I'm sure there's lots on the web. He might help to lead you towards a less controlling, guilt-based approach to your faith.

Please do not feel bad about this. You have done nothing wrong, nothing sinful or contrary to any beliefs.

As maryz says above, I do not know what websites you have viewed but they do not sound based in the spirit of love, support and community that religion is meant to provide.

To be brief - I am catholic. I have had two ectpoic pregnancies (the first of which was very close to killing me). I have also had IVF (without which I would not have my wonderful, gorgeous, fab DS). I now understand these to be unsupported by the catholic church.

Am I in the wrong over my actions: No
Did I do anything sinful or morally wrong: No
Would I pursue life saving surgery again: Yes
Would I have IVF in order to conceive: Yes

You sound a truly lovely person. Please do not let the prejudicial mutterings of a few of the ignorant idiots out there make you feel as if you did anything wrong. You didn't. I didn't. We did what we did to stay alive and to be mums. I grieve everyday for the two babies I lost. I wish I had them as siblings for my DS. But was I wrong to have surgery - No. If I hadn't I would be dead.

Do not feel guilty. You are a person first and foremost. Your religion would not condemn you. Don't read those sort of websites - if you look hard enough there are any number of sites out there catering to the uncensored ramblings of the marginally in/sane.

Be kind to yourself and I hope you feel better soon.

Oh sweetie, I feel so sad for all you've been through. I just wanted to say that you're in my thoughts, and I feel exactly as Quod does.

There was a booklet at the back of the Catholic church in the centre of Bournemouth, which I was flicking through whilst waiting for my husband to finish confession. I was interested in it because I was about to have my 20 week scan and knew someone who had faced the choice of what to do when told their unborn child had spinabifida.

The booklet went into great detail to explain things in much the same way that maryz did- that whilst all human life is sacred, there are times when these difficult decisions must be made and the life of the mother is also sacred.

The people who whould damn you in all situations obviously haven't any first hand experience of the situation and their theology is flawed- after all, if you hadn't taken the action you did then it could have taken your own life too as a consequence of rupture etc.

Zinc, I just wanted to come back to you slightly outside of the theological elements of this discussion.

I seem to be getting from your posts quite a strong sense of guilt and fear about what has happened to you.

I've had two early miscarriages in my time. The second was straight forward; painful yes but not beyond what I could cope with. The first, however, was like nothing else that I've ever felt. The pain was extraordinary. I fainted on the train trying to get home from London and then had to get off so I could get some proper air and not be jolted around. I was terrified, confused, I had no clue what was happening. I had no answers from the doctors I tried to see.

It took me a long, long time to get over that loss. In fact I spent most of my pregnancy with my now DD saying that I didn't want this baby; I wanted the one I'd lost before. I think that the shock and pain and confusion caused me to get very irrational and depressed.

Please take some time to consider where you are now, and if you think that you need to, please see a doctor and explain the difficulties you're experiencing living forward from that loss.

I feel very sorry for your loss - losing a child is always a great source of grief. However, not being religious, I would turn the question around and rather than berate yourself, question why a deity that is defined as loving and compassionate, along with being omnipotent, allowed such a thing to occur in the first place. Indeed, why does this deity allow so many miscarriages/ectopic pregnancies?

One could either explain this by the view that the deity has some form of ineffable plan for your and this potential child, or (and this is my atheist opinion) that the deity is not quite as loving and compassionate as those who believe would wish.

Once again my sympathy for your loss, and I hope you eventually resolve this period of your life.

Breton, I see where you are coming from with your ?why would a loving deity let it happen? argument, but to me that sounds like you are confusing God with Father Christmas. I'm Catholic and would find it hard to accept that God exists solely for my benefit, so that nothing bad should ever happen to me. My God is universal, the breath of the universe and the embodiment of love. God lights the way through the dark times in my life. God has been there with me. Bad things have happened to me - I wish they hadn?t - but I have grown through them, learnt through them, and, I hope, become more understanding.

Zinc, I am sorry for what happened to you. You said in your OP ?some Catholics believe??, but some Catholics believe all sorts of strange things. Please don?t believe everything you read on the internet. There?s lots of good advice on this thread.