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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

What do you think would help someone in my position - Alpha?

34 replies

jumpyjan · 13/08/2010 13:37

Difficult to explain but basically I consider myself a Christian though when I really think about it I know I cannot hand on heart say that I am.

I don't think I could honestly say that I put God at the centre of my life and I sometimes go for periods without thinking about it. I pray sometimes but not regularly. I have tried my local church (small village) numerous times but I just don't feel whatever I am supposed to feel about it. Sometimes I think I should go - but don't actually want to go.

I feel I have a strong belief in God & Jesus and His existence but if thats the case why do I not give more of myself to God? Why am I not an active Christian?

Sorry to ramble - I guess I am a bit frustrated in that I don't know what I should "do". I came across Christine Caine's books which I thought looked interesting or was wondering whether I should consider an Alpha course (though fear it would be v similar to my experiences at church). I guess I am fed up with not commiting myself and not really sure why I don't.

OP posts:
WurzelBoot · 13/08/2010 14:20

jumpyjan, can I ask why you feel an organised religion is missing in your life? Why do you feel the need to commit to one? Why didn't the local church feel right?

What I'm thinking is that your local church doesn't do it for you for whatever reason. I've been in churches (I'm Catholic) that don't do it for me either, and I'll generally try to find a different church that fits better, but I'm not in a village so have more options.

I think that reading is a good first step; it's not limiting, you can find things you like, things you don't like etc. I'd suggest the Gospel if you haven't already read it is a good place to start. It might also be that something like a Theology course or Philosophy course at a local college might be slightly more open than Alpha (though I admit I haven't attended one of their courses).

You'll be learning, getting in touch with God in other ways, and you might find your interest guided towards something specific later on.

In reference to your 'why am I not an active Christian?' question; I'd say it depends on what you mean by 'active'. Do you think that Christian's necessarily have to convert people or do something specific to be Christian? Or do you think that it just means 'live following Christian values and meat with likeminded people periodically to worship God'? And if it's the latter, do you know what those Christian values are? Are you in fact already doing it?

I think in your position I'd start with looking at texts specifically about God (rather than religion) and looking inwards and working out how all of it relates to you, specifically.

jumpyjan · 13/08/2010 15:25

Thank you for your reply Wurzelboot.

I will try to answer your questions honestly. I guess I have tried to convince myself over the years that just because I don't go to church that does not mean I am not a christian and now I am beginning to wonder. I think I just feel a need to be firmer about what I believe and for God to be a greater part of my daily life.

Its so hard to put my finger on why my local church does not feel right. I guess I see a lot of hypocricy (sp?) there, I also find it slightly suffocating - they tend to really latch on to "new young people" and I guess I find it a bit much as I am quite a reserved and private person. Sometimes I have enjoyed it more but like I say its something I feel I should do rather than want to do. I think I sometimes get annoyed with the idea that you can't be a Christian in their eyes unless you go on church outings/bake cakes for the raffle etc which is just not my scene.

I wish I did have more of a range of churches to choose from but they are all pretty similar here (and all connected in some way).

I think I am in a bit of a rut with it all if that makes sense and I want to move on but don't know how. I have read (parts of) the gospel and think I might try some wider reading which as you say might allow me to get in touch with God in other ways. I am interested in Alpha and its something I have thought about in the past but I suspect it will be all the same people from the church.

I suppose re being an active christian I just feel that I say I am a Christian but I can go weeks without thinking about God and praying and I want to change that.

I think I do (mostly!) adopt Christian values but like everyone I let myself down in this area sometimes.

OP posts:
Breton1900 · 15/08/2010 12:00

Interested to know why going to church is so important to you (see Mathew 18:20). If you obey the two tenets that the NT alleges were laid down by Jesus of Nazareth then you are doing the right thing.

I'd stop emotionally beating yourself up about this and just get on with leading a life that conforms with your belief. "By their deeds ye shall know them" and all that!

I don't think Alpha will be a great deal of use. From the ones I've attended it's all rather happy-clappy and a little too earnest. I also found the pietistic tendency to allude to the deity, as if discussing the chap next door, a bit creepy.

DutchOma · 15/08/2010 14:40

It sounds to me like you want the spiritual aspect of church life, but not the social one.
It also sounds as if you could do with clarification about what a Christian actually "is".
And you could do with realising that none of us makes it to being a "good" or a "perfect" Christian:- those songs of "I lay my all before you now" are just rubbish.
One might aspire to that, but we none of us make it.
It greatly amused me to hear one of my friends say that "Christians may not tell lies, but they certainly sing them."
See if you can find one of those little booklets that explains what a Christian is.
When all is said and done, you do not need religion, but you do need a relationship with the living Lord. Once you have seen Him, and what He has done for you, it will all make a lot more sense.

madhairday · 15/08/2010 16:37

DutchOma, I completely agree that none of us can make it to perfection. However, I don't completely agree re the wording of some songs (although I totally respect what you say and love you lots Smile - I think we can say 'I lay my all before you now' quite sincerely, knowing that we are flawed and unable to carry this through, but having the intention to being enough - if you see what I mean? It's kind of what grace is all about.

I do think that many sing this type of stuff without thinking, and some without meaning it, but for others it is well meant, and can carry through into life, which is what worship is all about. singing this phrase is a serious thing; are we then going to do something about it, and change something in ourselves? Do you kind of see what I mean?

To the OP, yes I think Alpha and its ilk can be helpful in exploring the issues you are thinking about. I disagree with Breton as to what alpha is like but take it that some may be as described. Ones I have come across are easy going, open and un-pushy. But I would say that, seeing as I lead these types of courses on a regular basis Wink I would hope that you would find the course a safe place to explore your questions and thoughts. I guess it would depend on the type of church running the course.

All the best, I completely back up DO's statement about needing a relationship with God, and it making sense from then on.

DutchOma · 15/08/2010 17:19

Yes, I do see what you mean MHD, but in this case, with the OP feeling that she is not making that kind of commitment I felt I had to say that we none of us can and that quite often we make these claims on an almost weekly basis where nobody thinks very hard about what they are singing.
I would hope that she could feel reassured that she is not alone in feeling that she cannot be a Christian when she feels that her commitment is not enough.

madhairday · 15/08/2010 17:27

:) DO. See what you mean. I'm certainly not trying to say I can say this and it be totally true.Just trying to get the balance of showing that it can be sincerely meant. Ignore me, I'm tired Grin

WurzelBoot · 15/08/2010 17:43

There's a brilliant bit at the start of Les Miserables which begins "Sin if you must, but be upright." It talks about the frailty of people, and about living the best that you can. We can't all be as clean as the saints are, but we can try to remember to try.

When I sing the hymns, they remind me what I want to be and should aim at, not necessarily what I am.

Though I cry so much (well, I weep quietly when the children aren't looking) singing "take all I start and spoil; each hopeful dream" because that is exactly me all over!

It's fine not to like the social aspect of church (in my opinion). I personally like that bit, but don't like the hypocrisy, particularly as I can see the hypocrisy in myself. I know that Catholicism has huge aspects of that I simply don't agree with. But it still feels like 'home'. My feeling is that as long as I don't lie to the community and allow them to accept me for who I am, that's OK.

If you want to spend more time bringing God into your life, it might be worth scheduling meditation, prayer and reading into your daily life. Just 5 or 10 minutes at a time. There are also websites that will send you a daily reading and a daily gospel which can give you more structure.

Finally, for me the church aspect of religion fulfils the 'one or more people gathered together in my name' aspect of Christianity. It's a nice 'extra' to trying to live as Jesus lived. As and when you gain confidence, you might discuss with a friend occasionally having a prayer meeting. Nothing special, just tea, buns, a couple of prayers and conversation. You might not be the only person in your area who wants something like this.

jumpyjan · 15/08/2010 19:51

Ladies - thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

It has certainly given me something to think about. I am reassured by the comments regarding everyone else not being a good or perfect christian as I guess I was thinking about it in those terms.

I have started to read the Gospel again today and am going to take time out to read it carefully and quietly (not easy with a 1 and 3 year old but I want to give it a go!) I think I do get confused about what a Christian is and perhaps I do not fully understand.

Wurzelboot - what you said about reading the text and looking inwards has really stuck in my mind and I wonder if perhaps I am too caught up in the outward signs of being a Christian i.e attending church, the things that I feel I should be doing rather than starting with what it all means to me inside.

Though I think one of the things at the foundation of this is that I want to be a better Christian and to see the best in people. I think for one reason or another I have become rather synical and perhaps this is why I have not got much out of church perhaps I am looking at the bad in people (such as the hypocricy) and not noticing the good.

I have contacted the church in the next village to mine regarding Alpha and had a lovely reply back so I think I might give it a try if I can get away to attend it. I guess it can't hurt.

Wuzelboot - I am interested in the daily readings you mentioned - could you recommend a website to me that I could try this through?

Really appreciate all your thoughts on this.

OP posts:
shivster1980 · 15/08/2010 20:38

If you do Twitter, I love following CSLewis Daily and many other more scripture based tweets. They are instantly accessible.

A book I always recommend is Nick Fawcett Daily Prayer, it's a really accessible and easy to dip in and out of study and ponder guide that sits at the side of my bed.

WurzelBoot · 16/08/2010 09:10

jumpyjan, the one I use is at Catholic.org (I have no idea if you're allowed to link on Mumsnet, sorry. Follow the links from their homepage to Bible and Daily Reading.)

(I'm new to Mumsnet and have no idea if you're allowed to link to other sites. If you are, let me know and I'll post the direct link.)

I'm fairly sure you could find a site that is not specifically Catholic thought. Having said that, they're just bible readings and I don't envisage there being any subliminal messages tempting you towards Catholicism!

Thank you for that tip, Sivster - I'd like to supplement my Spiritual readings with stuff that isn't specifically Catholic but have been to lazy to make a start. In fact I've done little but chat to a non-Catholic colleague about her religion.

Anyhow, I'm not sure I have much else to offer. I'm praying for you at the moment, JumpyJan, that you find a pathway to God that's comfortable for you.

WurzelBoot · 16/08/2010 09:10

Sorry - it's too early in the morning and I appear to have repeated myself throughout that. Once again; sorry!

oxocube · 16/08/2010 10:24

Its interesting to read about 'singing lies' DutchOma Smile. The singing is one of the things I love the most about the church I have recently started to attend. When I sing, I do mean it! I might never be able to attain perfection whatever that may mean, but I am trying to be a good person and one God wants me to be if that makes sense. Sorry if this is incredibly naive.

JJ, I am also considering the Alpha Course as I have started to go to church again after a long gap. My church is what a previous poster might call Happy Clappy, where it is quite common to hear some of the congregation calling out 'Praise Jesus' or 'speaking in tongues'. We have one African lady who dances around the church throughout the hymns, whose faith is incredible! At first I was a little embarrassed by this by now I love the fact that everyone is accepted to praise God in their own way.

I find that going to church focusses my attention, I enjoy the interpretation of the scriptures and I have come to believe very strongly in the power of collective prayer. I gain comfort and reassurance from worshipping with others. I still find it difficult to put into words but when I am in church, I feel alive, I feel something incredibly intense working in me and around me which I can only assume is the power of God. But as I say, I am newly returned to church and I guess I am still very much in the Honeymoon Phase Smile

DutchOma · 16/08/2010 10:36

Good for you Oxocube. Yes, I think that we all need to accept that when we sing "I lay my all before you" or somesuch, that it is the intention that counts and not the actual outworking of it.
Something very elemental dawned on me this morning, reading Jeff Lucas' Bible notes:-
We all accept readily that God loves us, but at the same time think that He is never pleased with us. Which of course is nonssense.
So I've been thinking of God's pleasedness with me and really felt His encouragement

madhairday · 16/08/2010 13:28

Lovely posts oxocube and DO :)

Oxo how lovely re where you are at in faith and church at the moment. You are experiencing the presence of God in a great way for you. How you describe it is how church should be in terms of feeling alive and reassured, whatever form of worship is happening. I'm of a similar churchmanship to the church you describe and find so much life and joy and reality in it all, even in the darkest times.

BetsyBoop · 16/08/2010 13:52

I can also heartily recommend Nick Fawcett's Daily Prayer book, it sits on my bedside table too.

I always mean to do more bible study/pray, but most days don't make find the time. However I virtually always ready the relevant day in "Daily Prayer". Each day there are bible passages, prayers & something to ponder over/ask yourself and it only takes a few minutes to read. Smile Better than nothing I guess...Blush

jumpyjan - as everyone has already said, none of us is a "perfect" Christian, I know I'm definitely in the "could do better" category Grin. We are all just finding our way as best we can through the ups and downs of our faith.

oxocube - great post, I kind-of know what you mean about feeling "alive" in Church, for me I come away feeling like I've has a "virtual hug", all calm & ready to face the challenges of the next week :)

spiritmum · 16/08/2010 20:37

jumpyjan - I'm not a Christian but I once was and very active too - even started the selection process to become a priest. I used to help run a service for mums with young children and we considered running Alpha, and after looking at the material (and in particular the books written by Nicky Gumbel) we decided not to. Two reasons: one was that the line taken was very definite, and we were a pretty mixed bag with lots of differing ideas theologically, from different backgrounds etc. Second, it was very (and unpleasantly IMO) anti-gay. I also used to read Church Times which had a quarterly Alpha News free with it and there were stories in there about how going on Alpha had turned people straight. Sad (OTOH Alpha does do amazing things for people who come from very abusive/dysfunctional backgrounds so I have always had mixed feelings about it.)

Although I fell very much in love with the church eventually I got my fingers burned very badly and now feel a huge relief that it's no longer part of my life. However, it was a necessary part of my journey that I go through that and I have no regrets. And as you can see from here for others it is a very different story and for them church is home.

One thing that I always got from reading the Gospels and Acts, even some of the epistles, is that the church as it is now (certainly the Anglican church to which I belonged) bears so little resemblance to the church as it was for early Christians that even when at my most enthusiastic I always felt we were betraying not only what the early church was meant to be, but what Jesus himself taught. I would have felt more comfortable with a loose house church and sharing bread and wine (can't remember the name for what I want but it translates as 'love-feast') rather than all the formal doctrine and dogma - and, heaven help us, fundraising for the church fabric fund. Confused

(so no, I was never a very good Christian! Wink)

jumpyjan · 16/08/2010 21:13

I am really touched by all of the responses and thank you for your time.

Shivster - Thank you for the recommendation re Nick Fawcett's Daily Prayer. I have had a little look on Amazon and think I will get a copy.

Wurzelboot - thank you for the website recommendation and thank you for your prayers.

Oxocube - I found it quite emotional reading your experience of church - what a wonderful feeling. I hope one day I can feel this way about church (or find a church that helps me to feel this way).

DO - I had to smile at your post "We all accept readily that God loves us, but at the same time think that He is never pleased with us." as that is exactly how I feel - all of the time. Isn't it funny how you think you are the only one who feel a certain thing!

Spiritmum - thanks for your post. After what you have said I might try and get an overview of the Alpha course before I commit to it (as you did) - was your experience with Alpha recent? Sad that you had such a bad experience with the Church. For me it has been more a case that it has not fulfilled anything inside me more than it being a bad experience.

This has all given me a lot to think about and I thank you all for your help.

OP posts:
spiritmum · 16/08/2010 23:21

Hi, Jan. Smile I last looked into Alpha about 4 or 5 yrs ago, but I would be very surprised of they don't still use Nicky Gumbel's work as the foundation for it. It's great if you want an Evangelical slant on Christianity, and you can get his books via Amazon.

But there are other courses around. Some churches run Emmaus which is worth a look. And see what your diocese has to offer; many run courses in Christian studies of some sort or other. Although these do usually take a year or two you can drop out if it doesn't suit; check out your diocesan website. And just about every church, however high or liberal or middle of the road, will have some kind of study group going during Advent (and of course Lent). Trouble is that churches are generally rubbish at advertising them (mostly because they assume only churchgoers will turn up - the exception being evangelising courses like Alpha) so you may have to take to popping in and out of churches or peering at notice boards on a regular basis to see what is on!

Don't be sorry for me re church, it was much better that I went and had the experiences that I did than if I'd never gone and still been sat at home wondering.

But the reason it doesn't fulfil you? Well, in my experience it was because I was looking outside myself for fulfilment when the answer, the place to look, was already within me.

I've got an ad over on classifieds for my website right now if you're interested, it's a spirituality website and not a religious one but I do run a course which is currently £1 as its still in its first stages and I'm seeing if it works for people.

Hope you find what you're looking for soon. xxx

madhairday · 17/08/2010 11:37

Hi spiritmum

I do agree with you re the church and how it originally was with the agape gatherings and way of being together spilling over into all of life, and how it has (often) become with the legalistic and outdated ways of doing things. I would hope however that many churches are exploring ways of getting back to how it was intended to be, although we could never get this to perfection, as DO says. Lots of churches now are much more based on this model, of all sorts of different denominations and churchmanships.

I'm so sorry you got your fingers burnt. This so often happens and is sad, but the inevitable result of the church only being human and flawed. You sound pretty positive about it still.

As for alpha, I guess each church slant on it is different, and the homosexuality thing could become an issue for some, but many prefer to look at the state the world is in and how we should be caring for the poor, and focus entirely elsewhere. So I wouldn't discount alpha because of some experiences. as you say there are different courses - I run Start courses which are simplified alpha really but even more laid back, just discussing peoples views and thoughts and presenting the Christian message in a non pushy way - I hope. :)

Jumpyjan - so glad you've found this thread of help. all the best to you. I'm sure you'll find what you need.

spiritmum · 18/08/2010 09:56

Hi, madhairday,

There's no need to be sorry. Smile I don't know if I'd describe it as fingers burnt, but it was pretty unpleasant. 'The scales fell from my eyes' is how I'd put it. Wink There was a particularly nasty incident but I won't recount it as it's in the past. Anyway, I'm a great deal happier as a consequence.

What I found about church was that it was about doing what is best for it rather than for God. So a great deal of it was about style of worship or the builidings. Once I asked someone to help me organise a coffee morning to raise money for the NICU where dd1 had been looked after and she said, 'yes, what a nice idea, you can have the money from the raffle'. Hmm Another time a group of mums wanted to hold an Easter themed craft event in church on Good Friday and the chucrhwardens wouldn't allow it because it was 'disrespectful'. There's loads of other stuff but I'll just sound like a bitter and twisted old woman so I'll stop there! Grin

I do love the freedom that I have now to explore ideas like reincarnation and the divine made manifest in nature, which I wouldn't before because it was 'pagan' to do so.

madhairday · 18/08/2010 11:15

Thanks for replying spiritmum.

I am so with you re church being often so inward looking. That sort of attitude you describe from the churchwarden etc makes me so, so angry and sad too. Not in the least what Jesus is about. I like to look beyond the flawed human institution of church and towards God, who he is and what he has done in Jesus.

divine made manifest in nature - absolutely, and why not. I believe God created the world so I totally go for seeing the divine all around us - in nature, in people. It's a shame that some have been so narrow minded as to shelve this kind of stuff because it's what - gasp - non christians and pagans appreciate.

Reincarnation is an interesting concept. I love reading about this stuff but remain convinced about the foundations of Christianity.

Interesting to chat to you :)

spiritmum · 18/08/2010 17:36

Hello again, madhairday. Very odd to be having two separate converstaions with you at the same time! Very enjoyable though, thank you.

I know the church is fallible, and I udnerstand that people who belong to it really believe that they are doing their best to serve God. But I used to feel so angry, and unhappy a lot of the time. I feel happier for not going, and I get on better with my former church family now - I'm in a village so we see each other all the time. That said, the attitudes of some has undoubtably changed - but that is how it is, when I had a lable that matched theirs we were the same; now I no longer have that label we notice that we are divided by something.

When I was studying one of my tutors was so clever he made Rowan Williams look like Paris Hilton - in the brain department, anyway. Wink He had been a Unitarian before going fully to the CofE and was pretty liberal on most things. But when I sat in our study group and tried to explain that I look at a sunset and see God I was howled down, because to do so is to worship something that is created, and not the creator. And not just him, but others in my group. So I kind of squashed it all inside, until I left the church and realised that I didn't want ds baptised. Then I just decided to give everything a try, so I got to explore my pagan side at last. Smile I don't practise witchcraft, although I have read up on it a great deal and have no issues with it - maybe one day, who knows? Maybe one day I will return to my roots and become a priest, or follow my heart into taking vows and retreating from the world somewhere (Buddhist or Christian - who knows?)- a few years ago I would have done just that had I not already been married. I really thought Christianity was it for life for me and having lost my faith I really think that nothing would surprise me now!

DutchOma · 18/08/2010 20:16

I wouldn't call it a 'very clever' person who 'howled you down' when you said that you saw 'God in a sunset' Who or what else are we going to see? Were you 'adoring the sunset? If you see God in the sunset you worship God, surely. Some people are too clever for their own good.

madhairday · 18/08/2010 20:21

I'm enjoying our conversations too spiritmum :) I'll be back tomorrow. Just a quick post to say totally agree with DO. A sunset is surely a totally natural thing to see God in and appreciate and be in awe of.
lol at Rowan Williams ala Paris Hilton Grin