If a dog bites, would you consider it dangerous?

[WinkyWinkola]

My 3 yo dd put out her hand to a dog in passing waiting outside the supermarket today and it just bit her. No blood but her hand has swollen up.

She didn't even touch it. I don't let her touch strange dogs but she did this too quickly for me to stop her.

Apparently it's not a dangerous dog and my dd should have been better controlled.

I suspect this dog might be a biter because the owner wasn't at all surprised or sympathetic to my howling daughter.

Wouldn't you, as a responsible dog owner, muzzle your dog if you're going to leave it outside a supermarket where lots of little kids are walking past? You're not even there to supervise the animal.

One of those really tricky situations IMHO. Personally I wouldn't leave any dog tied up where passing people (child or adult could touch / poke/ grab) but similarly you know that it was a very bad idea for DD to try to touch it.

Not saying it was in any way your fault - sometimes Lo's just act to quick to stop. Really sorry she got bitten, but children should never reach out to dog without asking the owner and waiting to see what they say.

there's really no way of knowing whether the dog has a temperament problem or was reacting to a strange small person sticking their hand in his face. You have to remember a dog can't say 'go away' or slap someone's hand away if they don't want to be touched. It can only growl or bite. Possibly it was showing signs of being uncomfortable with DD's approch but of course small children (and many adults) can't pick up on this.

Sorry this happened. The owner might be horrid, but hopefully the dog owner is a nice person and will learn from this.

I like Fuzzy, because again we agree!

The dog isn't imho and ime necessarily dangerous. You just can't judge on that one experience, anything could have been a factor. Yes, he could be a dodgy one, equally he could have been startled and threatened by your daughter, been feeling off-colour, overheated, stressed and scared by an earlier passer-by, even (not casting doubt upon you but your OP isn't totally clear as to whether you saw the whole incident), reacting in a friendly manner and caught your DD by accident.

I have 2 large dogs and working with rescue and knowing what I do about the number of thefts I don't usually leave my dogs unattended. However I live in a very small village with a local shop which is laid out so I can see them so I occaisonally tie them up outside for 5 mins. I muzzle one as he was beaten by his previous owner and therefore I feel that you can't be too careful about strangers interacting with him. The other is the larger of the 2 and I know that I can trust him. I can only hope that the owner of the dog in your case has learned from this horrid incident and will in future muzzle the dog or not leave him unattended.

I have the greatest respect for you for teaching DD not to touch strange dogs (I've met adult men who have been stupid enough to approach my muzzled boy... FGS why I don't know!). I can only suggest that of course you continue with that but also perhaps ask someone (perhaps another mum of young DC) who owns a friendly, reliable dog if you can join them on a dog walk one day soon to reassure DD that not all dogs are bad and she need not fear them whilst taking the oppurnity to reinforce the "don't touch or go too near until both Mummy and owner say so" rule.

I hope that your daughter is okay now and that you are reassured that most dog owners are responsible and most dogs are perfectly nice.

Depends entirely on the situation. If the dog snapped/bit because it was afraid/suprised (i.e. a child jumping on him when he was asleep etc) then no, I wouldn't consider it dangerous at all.

Also, children should be kept away from strange dogs as you don't know what they are like, yes, in an ideal world people would supervise a dog that is potentially a biter but not everybody is very responsible so it's up to oneself to be careful.

Winky, can I just add, without trying to sound too up myself, that I've seen you have posted this in AIBU too. There you have got a more balanced view insofar as you have got people who aren't as nuts about dogs as me... but you have also got people who aren't as experienced with them too.

You've also got the odd "string 'em up and kill 'em" brigade type, which does nothing for my patience levels and blood pressure!

Trying to get a bit of perspective here, there will always be a monority of dogs which are a danger to something, be that children, men, cats, whatever. Similarly there are people out there who are bad owners and humans who are a danger to other humans and/or animals.

The majority though, are reasonable and decent, be they dogs or human beings. In your situation, we just don't know.

Can I play devil's advocate and put another spin on it?

The owner comes out of the shop not having seen the incident. He doesn't know what your DD has done but knows that his dog has never before caused a problem. Maybe even he has children of his own who live peacefully with his dog. Although his dog reacted in fear of your DD/excitement and caught her accidentally/was in pain/feeling off-colour he feels that your DD must have shocked and scared his hitherto friendly dog to provoke such a reaction.

He therefore doesn't consider his dog a bad animal but remonstrates with you for allowing your DD to approach his dog and frighten/distress him and for permitting DD to get close to his dog without permission as he knows this to be out of character for his dog.

He is also painfully, fearfully aware of the ambiguous terms of the Dangerous Dogs Act, which could see his beloved friendly family pet killed before a trial, by what is proven to be a kangaroo court, without sufficient evidence or recourse to justice. He therefore reacts with an instant and instinctive desire to protect his dog.

That doesn't make him wrong or a bad owner. On the contrary, IF he reacted because he feared the things I've described and had no prior reason to be concerned about his dog, he is a good owner.

As I said, we none of us know.

Sorry, no way.

A good dog owner does not blame a small child for the injury his dog inflicted.

According to the Kennel Club your dog is in a public place (and therefore you are responsible for it's behaviour) if it's locked in your car. If someone put their hand in the car and the dog bit them, it would be your fault for leaving the dog in an accessible situation. So leaving it outside a shop is a bit unreasonable.

Although personally, anyone who tries to get into my car with my dog in there and gets bitten is asking for it!

Any dog, tied up, is a dangerous thing, and should NEVER be approached by a stranger. I have been bollocked (as an adult)for doing just that. If a dog is tied up, it is easy to walk round the animal out of reach. The dog can't get away and its options are limited, whether or not they are with their owner.

I'm sorry your dd was bitten. We are all caught unawares sometimes.

We have dogs that have no great liking of children, and I get very upset if children approach and expect to play with them.

What fuzzy said.

Grey area. I wouldn't tie my dogs up for this reason - when they have no escape route due to being tied you cannot expect even the most placid of dogs to behave "normally". Even though I have 99.9% confidence that one of mine would never bite and she is very used to children, even in large groups for nursery visits etc, I would never leave her tied outwith my supervision for her own benefit.

Your daughter shouldn't have been allowed close enough to be in contact with the dog. The dog, IMO shouldn't have been tied. Fault on both parts.

Also, if her hand has swollen and the skin was broken at all, PLEASE have her checked by a doctor. Having said that, GPs are notoriously ignorant about dog bites but they can be extremely serious due to the bacteria present in a dog's mouth and the poor blood supply to the structures of the hand and fingers. Don't like to panic anyone but a dog bite to the hand must be taken very, very seriously.

I was bitten on the hand by a dog, and I was given a tetanus jab. I think tetanus is in one of the childhood vaccinations anyway. Probably, given the amount of scrapes kids get.

Tetanus is really uncommon in dog bites. I have seen one case of tetanus in a dog in my life, and that was a puppy which had probably developed it as a result of infection while teething. I have seen thousands of dog bite wounds (mostly in dogs!) and never any tetanus as a result. And dogs don't even get vaccinated for tetanus. Yet humans are, and doctors still panic about it.

The main issue is the revolting bacterial infections that can develop, and the difficulty with treating these infections successfully when they involve tendons and joints. It's a source of great irritation to me that doctor's are so dismissive of bites. I know three people who have had to have surgical treatment to save parts of their hands as a result of dog bites, and I remember one person who took my advice of insisting on antibiotic treatment for a horrendous bite on his hand, who still then ended up in hospital on IV antibiotics to get on top of the infection. That was after he'd had to argue with his doctor to get any treatment at all.

Sorry for hijack

[crusade end]

it is just outrageous to yet again see dog lovers on here soft soaping when a dog has acted agressively towards a child. If the dog can't handle having a hand extended towards it, it should have a muzzle on at the very least. That is a dangerous dog.

No, I don't think just because a dog bites it is dangerous. People are obsessed with dogs being 'dangerous', but statistically, your child is more at risk from a family friend or relative and we don't get such hysteria about those...

It doesn't sound like the dog intended to hurt your child. If it had intended to, it would have broken the skin and it would have done harm. Maybe the dog did feel threatened, or mnaybe it was excited and nipped as it ha snever been taught not to when it gets excited. No-one can really say without being there and knowing what they are talking about, people often misintepret how dogs behave.

I do think though that not many responsible dog owners leave their dogs tied up. Not because they might bite someone if 'cornered' (I would bet a years wages if anyone approached my 'cornered' dogs they would roll over for a tummy rub! ) but because they would be at risk of theft or harm from people.

I also have to admit that if one of my dogs bit a child, I would immediately want to know what the child had done, as it really would be out of character for them, even if they had been put in a difficult situation or accidentally hurt.

No way.

A dog that bites a small child for putting a hand out to it is dangerous.

Biting is dangerous. How can you say it's not?

Bonkers.

Grim, your views exemplify those of many people who have no understanding of what can reasonably be expected of a dog. They are another species being made to live in our world by our rules. They have limited means of communication, which amounts to nothing if the individual they are trying to communicate with is oblivious to their signals. Very frequently the dog that bites has gone to lengths to demonstrate their discomfort but their body language has been disregarded and they are left with no option but to bite. To someone with little understanding of dog behaviour a bite may appear unprovoked but this is actually very uncommon.

Yes tired - that's why it should either not have been tied up outside a shop or should have been wearing a muzzle. Should a child have to learn that 'there are dogs around, they will bite you if they want, it's only your own fault if they do'

How about, "There are dogs around. They do not rationalise, think or necessarily have the same fortunate and loving background as you. Nor do they have the range of social skills and ability to express fear, discomfort, pain, distress, mistrust or concern that you do. They MAY bite and we do not always know which will or won't, and often, particularly if we don't have an understanding of and/or experience of dogs, we do not know WHAT they might do. It is therefore your fault if as a reasonably intelligent adult/young person you provoke such a reaction and it is down to me, as an adult and parent if you are a child, to explain these things to you in an age-appropriate manner and prevent an unpleasant incident from occurring.

By the same token, the vast majority of dogs are NOT to be feared, as is proven by the huge number who live in family homes without incident, but the sensible measure is not to take unreasonable risks".

Does that cover it?

AnyFuleKno, we don't know whether this dog was known by the owner to be aggressive or whether this was completely out of character. Largely I'd agree that he shouldn't have been tied up outside the shop, for the reasons and with the exceptions I have already given. However, as to whether he should have been muzzled... well, if the owner had never before had reason to doubt his dog's temperement, there would have been no reason for doing so.

Sometimes this happens and we don't know why. I'm currently trying to find rescue for an 8 yo dog at the plea of a vet who has been asked to PTS. The dog has lived with a family all his life without a problem in the world until Sunday when an 11 yo child in that family had a "hissy fit" and the dog bit. (He did NOT "attack", btw, this was not a sustained assault and he's a large breed, had he wanted to he would have carried on, not nipped and run).

His is not a breed I'm particularly accustomed to but speaking to breed rescue today I have learned that they have the most health problems and are at most risk of dying due to genetic issues between the ages of 7 and 9. Breed rescue thinks it is entirely possible that the dog is ill and that is why he nipped the child when she kicked off in a tantrum. Not acceptable to most, admittedly, though I wouldn't dream of killing him if he were mine, but understandable, when you consider that a dog has no way of saying, "I'm in pain and I'm frightened"?

Yes, a million times.

Yeah but you're missing the point.

I don't actually care about how little the dog can or cannot understand.

Get me? I don't care.

If a dog can't take the strain of being among the public and all that goes with it, then that dog should be kept well away.

It's not good enough. Little children should not have to worry about whether they can walk past a dog or not in case it's been maltreated or might nip or bite.

It doesn't sound like to me the dog had been prodded or poked or hurt by the little girl.

If a dog can't take the strain of being among the public and all that goes with it, then that dog should be kept well away.

Just in case you didn't understand.

Patronising cuts little ice with me, itsgrimupnorth.

A dog should be able to be in public without some idiot scaring him/provoking him/allowing their child to do so.

But you don't care.

Where I care is about the treatment of dogs by the ignorant and inexperienced in our society.

But you don't understand.

What I understand is that this ignorance is rife.

What I have seen are more dogs abandoned and ill-treated, more dogs killed because of ignorance, over-reaction and stupidity than you have had hot dinners.

And I have worked through the night many a time, put my hand in my own pocket, my money where my mouth is, sold my soul and broken my heart and my faith in human nature to save them. I could go on...

But I don't think you will ever understand.

Oh, and BTW, the child in question did not merely "walk past" the dog.

SHE PUT HER HAND OUT TO A DOG, WHO, BECAUSE HE WAS ON A LEAD, WAS RESTRICTED AND "CORNERED".

Not the same thing at all.

Yes and she should have been able to do that putting out of her hand without worrying about being bitten. If that's considered provocation then the dog is a problem and in a problem situation.

The dog should not have been there where there are little kids around or anyone around if it's so rattled by someone putting out their hand to it. It's not hard.

I'm against all dog cruelty but I think kids come first and they shouldn't have to worry about being bitten by some dog that they get too close too.