does anyone know anything about apparently mental rabbits?

[Coca]

We have two male rabbits who have lived in the same hutch since november. We went on holiday and took them to SIL's house for the week. Since they have come back one of them has gone loopy and kept attacking them so we have seperated them. They now get let out for a run around seperately but I have noticed the weirdest behavior. The one that has scratches and fur missing keeps going up to the bully bunny's cage until it flips out and tries to bite or scratch through the cage. I'm guessing that a simple snip would sort out the aggression (they haven't had the snip because they always got on fine and crappy people we are we just forgot about it) but why does the victim keep going back for more?
I know we should have got them snipped straight away

I think the victim one is willing to have another go at coming out on top. I believe they may well fight to the death, so the snip is really the only option.

God really? The pet shop said that the op was optional as they might be fine. Obv we thought that they were after all this time. It's just weird that they have switched so suddenly and the bully has no wounds not even a tuft of fur missing.

Sounds like the pet shop was just trying to make a sale. It's unusual for two male rabbits to get along. Pairs of rabbits are usually two females.

Or DH was slightly economical with the truth. Poor rabbit.

agree, it's really not usually recommended to have 2 males, they will normally fight a lot, even if they are sibling pairs

not that that helps you now! phone vet in the morning and book them in to be neutered. but be aware that this may not stop it entirely.they're fairly territorial and may still be so even after the snip... but hopefully it'll work for your 2!

I feel such a dufus. I wouldn't have bought a dog without research so I should have looked up rabbits. I just listened to DH as to what to do with them. Maybe the pet shop did just want a sale or why would they sell two males when he bought the one cage at the same time.

Thanks for the advice both of you.

YOu're welcome. I hope the snip goes well.

I had two females together. They were neutered Rex sisters and one killed the other when they had lived happily together for over two years.

All my rabbits now a hutched individually, although I do put them in runs in twos if I am there to watch.

So glad I asked, dd1 (8) did her best teenage eyeroll at me when I said I was asking and said " yeah right like a bunch of mums are going to know" (but then if I am her example to go by....

How dare she!
I might be a mum, but I am also many other things! (an idiot a lot of the time!)

Blimey, Buzzing, it's scary that one of yours actually killed the other. We has half-sister rabbits and there is clearly one dominant rab and one subservient. Whenever the dom one is stressed she takes it out on her sis with the scratching and fur pulling. It was worst when we put them in a wire hutch for winter indoors, and they felt insecure after their wooden hutch (which is covered in wood on all sides apart from the front). When we moved them back to their old hutch the problems stopped. The other thing we did to stop the biting was buying each of them a little wooden hut to retreat to, so each of them has a 'safe' space. Now dom rabbit still bullies the other one, but they clearly love each other nevertheless and lie together licking each other's ears most of the time.

Neither has been 'done', but our vet is totally against female sterilisation for dwarf rabbits anyway and thinks it wouldn't make the dom one less aggressive.

I personally wouldn't have a rabbit done, but we were given those two from someone who could no longer have them.

hmm why would you not have one done?
i was told by the vet on monday that uterine cancer is the biggest killer in female rabbits and that he'd strongly suggest we get her spayed..
haven't had her booked in yet but was going to

we have a male/female pair so had just planned on getting the male neutered originally

Sorry this has happened. All rabbits in captivity should be neutered on reaching maturity, particularly when kept in pairs. Male siblings can and do live harmoniously but only if neutered. All pairings of any sex will fight eventually if not neutered.
If you intend on keeping them and possibly re-introducing them I would get them neutered now. If you would like to re-introduce them once neutered you can do so on neutral territory, for example in a small enclosed room such as your bathroom. You will need to dedicate a few days to be with them and have a thick pair of gardening gloves and a broom handle ready to pull them apart if they fight. Mounting is normal, they are re-establishing dominance but any fighting no good. It might not work sadly but worth a try. If they fight you might need to give up, rabbit fights can cause a lot of damage and even death.
If no good you should probably think about pairing them with a female each (again all buns should be neutered), a rabbit rescue will probably do this for you. The male / female pairing is often harmonious and more 'forgiving'. Or if you can't afford / have time to care for 4, think about rehoming one of the males. I wouldn't recommend keeping them on their own as rabbits are very sociable and thrive much better with a partner. Good luck with what you decide

thisisyesterday

Your vet is quite right, most females will develop uterine cancer if not neutered. Also, an unneutered female is likely to fight her male partner so do get them both done.

Oh I feel awful and irresponsible. I know I should have checked all this but how many shops are selling rabbits without warnings? I'm too scared to get females only for them to all fight. What about guinea pigs? I'm sure we mixed them with rabbits as kids?

Pet shops are terribly irresponsible selling rabbits at all. They are tricky animals to manage.

Definitely a no to mixing with Guinea Pigs, also likely to bully and fight.

Don't feel bad, you've seperated them for the time being which is the right thing to do. You now have some breathing room to think about the next approach. By the way if one is winding up the other i'd keep them further apart, allow them to see each other but not too close.

I had 2 brothers which fought despite neutering and couldn't re-bond. The rescue paired them with neutered females and they have lived happily ever since in their new bonded pairs. So it's not insurmountable. But you will need to think about (after neutereing) whether you want to attempt a re-bond and what you will do if they won't re-bond. i.e. can you afford 4 rabbits? If not will you 'swap' a male (via a rescue for example) with a female? Or will you keep them as singletons. I know the 3rd option seems the easiest but I'd probably try and view that as the last option if you can.

I think give both the snip and then look into swapping the dominant one for a rescue girl. The dds are a little wary of him now he's been so violent. I'm actually terrified of taking the beaten up one to the vet, I feel so guilty.

coca this has happened to ours. one was all bitten and scabby,so we separated. he's healed but we need to think about neutering too. the dominant one is ultra tame....he jumps on laps like a little dog!!

It's just that, personally, I think it's unfair to put such a small animal through it. Mind you, all my rabbits are rescued, so I don't usually get them until they are adults.

Hi

coco don't feel bad, I too thought rabbits all lived happily together too. I'm rubbish and haven't had them neutured either.

We had a dutch female and two english males that lived together for about 6months and then she got pg and they attacked her and killed the baby (only a few hours old) she died whilst under anaethestic to repair her wound.

The two males (brothers) still live together and most of the time lie together licking ears etc, but some days we have constant charging around with the dominant one trying to get at the other.

When you talk about re-bonding, if we took them both to be done on the same day, and brought them back together would they be ok to go in together to recuperate or not.

thanks

superwoman25, please book to get them done asap or they will fight, guaranteed. the damage can be extensive and far outweighs the cost of neutering. When you take them to be neutered, ask for both to be recovered together. NEVER separate a bonded pair, especially same sex pairs.

coca, vets see the results of rabbit fights all the time don't worry they are used to examining and patching up injured rabbits. Please take him, their skin is thin and tears easily, it can be difficult to find tears yourself. I'd probably take both along, it's rare for only one to be injured, although usually one comes off worse.

One isn't more violent than the other, what causes a fight is the less dominant suddenly refuses to accept this and therefore a fight ensues. It's a two-way thing. Of interest my more 'dominant' boy was damaged far worse in the fight than his brother. Both boys are absolutely fine and tame with humans (understand their fight isn't with you, you see) and are now both 'dominated' by feisty females. Very often in rabbit pairs the female (and usually smaller bunny) is the dominant partner. An 'alpha' male rabbit which won't accept dominance by a male will often allow dominance by a female. Just like humans, lol

Just to point out that our vet in Germany is vehemently against neutering female rabbits for the sake of it just because of rumours that they develop uterine cancer otherwise. When I mentioned neutering to him he said, 'Did you hear this in America?', and explained that it was a widely-spread misconception in the Anglo-American world that uterine cancer was so prevalent in unneutered females. Obviously this is just the view of one person, but he has basically refused to neuter our rabbits, and to be honest, now they have got to the age of 4 without being nabbed by the neighbourhood foxes or killed by each other I've got a lot more relaxed by it all.

The two of them love each other in their own weird little Sapphic rabbit way. As long as they get to 7 it's a fair old rabbit life.

The following review might be helpful. Female rabbits may not necessarily die of uterine cancer but it is highly prevalent nonetheless. Rabbit experts agree that neutering females also helps minimise aggression, particularly important in the confined environment of the average hutch. Most rabbit rescues in his country will recommend neutering females. Perhaps your vet has evidence to discredit this, I would be interested to hear it.

Uterine Cancer
Toft, J. D. 1992. Commonly observed spontaneous neoplasms in rabbits, rats, guinea pigs, hamsters, and gerbils. Semin. Avian Exotic Pet Med 1:80.

The Biology of the Laboratory Rabbit, 1994 edition.

Adenocarcinoma of the uterus is the most frequently encountered neoplasm of the rabbit. Ingalls (J. Natl. Cancer Inst. 33:799-806. 1964) showed that 11 of 12 rabbits developed uterine carcinoma. Because of the number of rabbits developing carcinoma many researchers looked into the possibility of estrogen being carcinogenic. There was quite a bit of conflicting data, and the authors draw this conclusion "Data is extremely difficult to interpret because of the naturally high incidence of adenocarcinoma of the uterus in untreated rabbits."

Later, "Notwithstanding heredity as a factor, the incidence of uterine carcinoma has been noted to exceed 50% in certain colonies of random bred females kept past 5-6 years."

Ann NY Acad. Sci. 75:535-542 Green, 1958.
Greene monitored a colony of rabbits over a long period of time (8-10 years). All rabbits dying from whatever causes were necropsied. 16.7% of 849 rabbits were found to have uterine adenocarcinoma. The average age of the colony was greater than 4 years, which is important, because most lab rabbits are under 24 months of age. The tumor incidence in Greene's colony was very closely linked to age. In rabbits dying between 2 and 3 years of age the incidence of cancer was 4.2%. In rabbits 5-6 years of age the incidence is 79.1%.

We don't know what the different causes of death were, but they are listed as "natural". The incidence of cancer in males and females is about the same in rabbits under two years of age, after that, the incidence in females dramatically increases over the males, primarily due to uterine cancer.

We found the article in TBLR because it was referenced in a journal that claimed that the incidence of cancer was somewhere between 1 and 4% in rabbits. That low figure was compiled from laboratory rabbits, most under 2 years of age. So, that figure agrees very well with Greene's findings. When one starts looking at older rabbits the data drastically changes. Most of the veterinarians we've talked with seem to believe that this is very genetically controlled. TBLR even lists breeds that are not susceptible to uterine cancer. While 80% may not be a figure for all rabbits, it was for that colony. Other colonies have had >50% incidence of cancer.

Thanks spacedog I will ring the vets tomorrow and see when they can be done.

Superwoman25