Found another litter, but....

[kid]

I'm not sure.
Firstly, they are not health checked and they are a million miles from me, but not undriveable.
Breeder owns mum and dad, plus another female dog that had pups from same dad.

Right colour and sex but a bit expensive (I think) for digs that have not been health tested.

So MN jury, should I walk away from this litter?

was Moby health checked?

what does a health check involve?

yes walk away. any breeder who is not prepared to have health checks on her pups is not a good one.

IMHO you should probably listen to RockRose...

YES!

Walk away.

Kid it took me AGES to find a breeder that had done the health checks I wanted, and as midori said on your other thread the health checks are just the bare minimum.

Keep looking, the right puppy is out there for you. It might not even have been made yet

Health testing and health checking are different. Health tests can be things like hip and elbow scoring, DNA tests and eye checks, and are usually carried out on the parents. A health checks would usually be a veterinary examination of the pups. Health testing is probably most important, as it gives you an indication of the likelihood of certain conditions developing in the pups.

The pups will be checked by a vet before get it, at least I think they would be but will double check.
The health check would ensure the pups won't develop a common illness for that breed. It doesn't cover everything but it would reduce the risk of getting an I'll dog.

I don't think moby or his parents were health checked. I wrote to the breeder to let her know what had happened but she didn't respond. I don't know whether to be sad or angry at her. She kept one of the litter herself so hopefully she will at least be vigilant with that pup. We were novice puppy buyers at the time, whereas now, I am a nuerotic buyer!

(I'm typing this message on iPod so you will have to forgive me for any spelling mistakes!)

my pups were health checked but not healthtested.

Kid if you are prepared to drive then I would REALLY recommend the breeder in the Lake District that I used and I was VERY careful as my first springer died from a horrible condition aged 4.

I know those saying walk away are probably right, but I want a puppy!

I am trying so hard not to get one for the sake of getting one. I know I need a health checked/screened one, but I am getting impatient.

It's still early days, i'vemarked on my calendar that 'my' pup will be born on 26th June for him to be 8 weeks old after my holiday. Can you tell I am obsessed?

It's my anniversary on Thursday (24th), perhaps he can be born then and be my special anniversary present?

kid, you are not neurotic, you are understandably anxious. imho you are being a responsible buyer by researching and asking questions.

I'm not sure what the recommended health tests are for springers. If hips and elbows are recommended then yes you are looking for both parents (and grandparents too - you can check on the KC website if you have their proper KC names) to have low scores, preferably below the breed average. Low scores won't guarrantee the puppy will not develop hip or elbow dysplasia, but the chances of inherited joint problems are reduced.

DNA tests will let you know if your puppy will have a disease or not.
My pup's sire has recently had his optigen eye test done (negative ) so even if the dam was a carrier my puppy will not get the disease.

I think lake district is really, really far away!
I was originally looking just 50 miles from home but have extended that to 100 miles. I am getting fed up of searching, it's slowly driving me insane.

I will check lake district distance though, just incase.

here

oops no not there here!

getting health testing done is IMO important

walk away.

too many people think its fine, and then their dog has HD, or other probs, and they get landed with huge vets bills and wonder if they should have bothered..(although this can happen with health checked dogs, its less likely)

and also ..what does this breeders contract of sale involve? is there a no-quibble return clause?

if this dog turns out to have, say, eye problems, what help will this breeder be?

Kid, sorry to be a party pooper, but walk away, please, for rhe dogs' sakes if not for your own. Not only would you be risking more heartache for yourself by going to a breeder which doesn't health test their parent dogs, you are also encouraging such breeding - and you know all too well how the results of that can be disasterous. It may not be you next time - but it will be another devastated owner and another young dog which suffers.

Just an idea, but whilst you're searching and still have a puppy shaped gap in your lives and home, have you considered fostering for a rescue?

You'd have all the benefits of a canine friend plus the rescue's back-up and support, without the bills or long term commitment. Dunno if it' something you'd consider but I thought it worth suggesting.

Please can I reiterate, a health check or "vet check" does not preclude the pup from developing hereditary conditions. You cannot tell by examining dogs at 8 weeks of age which ones will develop illnesses in later life. The vet health check will only identify things like obvious current illness, hernias, some congenital heart problems, undescended testes and problems with the alignment of the jaw. These checks cannot predict future illness.

However, screening of the parents can give you an indication of the likelihood of the litter going on to develop specific problems in later life. In your case kid, I suspect that these screening tests are as important as a health check. Both having taken place are evidence of good breeding practices.

Sorry for random repetition in those posts, first one was from phone earlier. I remember now what you went through with Moby and although nothing in the world can make 100% certain that something similar couldn't happen again it would be madness to take on another pup without being careful to check the background closely.

Walk away. Also, stop trawling the classifieds looking for a puppy/litter. Your chances of finding a well bred litter there are slim at best and it is really hard for someone who doesn't know what to look out for to distinguish between good and bad breeders and not get conned by the increasingly clever/deceitful puppy farmers.

Buying a puppy from parents that aren't health tested not only increases your chances of getting an unhealthy puppy, but also encourages the idiots (and believe me, I am being polite!) who breed without proper thought. If they are prepared to cut corners on something as basic and essential, IMHO, as health testing, where else have they cut corners? What other potential problems could the puppy have?

I know you are keen to get another pup at the right time, but hopefully you will have 14+ years of companionship from your dog, so surely if getting the right puppy means waiting a couple of months more, then it's worth it? Also, do you really want to encourage the kind of irresponsible breeding that may have contirbuted to the dreadful loss of your first pup?

Look here:

www.englishspringer.org

There are details of health testing and code of ethics for breedrs, which will help give you an idea of what to ask. There is also a puppy register, but it doesn't seem that up to date.

You could also try joing the Champdogs forum and asking on there if anyone knows of a good breeder in your area.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

In reality I know it's right to walk away, which is why I haven't agreed to buying the pup. It is so sad that people are breeding a pup that could be potentially ill.

It's awful what happened to moby but at least he didn't suffer, that's all I can say to keep myself sane. He had the time of his life with us and us with him.

I have considered fostering val, but would be worried about getting attatched. We found a dog once and kept him for a few hours until the dog warden turned up. DD was so upset that we couldn't keep him.

Right, no more trawling the classifieds, I might peek now and again but will only search for health screened parents.

When we eventually find that pup, he is going to be so loved by all of us. We deserve a healthy puppy, surely we do after what happened to moby.

M mil breeds springers but isn't having another litter for a few months yet.
I can ask if she knows anyone who is having a litter soon?

She is very strict about hr puppies, vets potential buyers thoroughly nd follows helth checks etc.

I'm not advertising her as a breeder, just trying to say if she does know of anyone they are more likely to be reputable if you ee what I mean. And of course you would check for yourself as well.

Could you find out for me please oiteach?
I really want to do all I can to get a healthy pup.

Ah, perhaps if you did decide to foster and you did fall in love with the dog in your care, your dilemma would be solved and your dream dog found.

I'll happily ask for you.

I'll email her now and let you know what she says.

Thanks.

Guess what....
I found another litter

I have emailed them and will see what they say. Timing isn't perfect as the litter aren't due until the 31st July. I did think it said they were ready to be rehomed on the 31st July, but I was looking at the site on my ipod and its quite a small screen.

They are listed on a champdogs website. They come with a 5 generation pedigree which I am assuming is good. They also like to keep in touch with their puppies in their new home which is sweet.
They don't mention how much their pups are, I am guessing they are not cheap but you do get what you pay for. I will see what they say, if they reply that is.

I am still looking at rescue dog sites Val.

Kid, neither of the parents of the litter you mention are listed as health tested on the KC site. Testing in working lines is unfortunately not as common as in show lines. Also, show lines are generally calmer and can make better pets for that reason.

If you search through the breeders (ones whos dogs have current health tests are 'starred', which makes it easier to find them.

Breeders should:

-have health tested both parents

-have puppies checked over by a vet before they leave, or at the very least encourage you to take puppy to your vet within 2 days of taking it home to be checked.

-have wormed puppies regularly, preferably, but not essentially frontlined them

-weaned puppies onto good quality food (premium brand, not Bakers, Pedigree etc IMHO)

-rear puppies indoors and have socialised puppies as much as possible within the home and preferably at least one trip out

-KC register the pups and provide a 5 generation pedigree

-have a sales contract

-insist that if you can no longer keep the pup at any time in it's life, you return it to or at least contact the breeder.

-want to stay in touch with you/keep up with pups progress

-provide a puppy pack with the puppy, which might just include information, but would ideally include at least a small supply of the food the puppy has been on. (I also include 'The Perfect Puppy' by Gwen Bailey and also 'Book of the Bitch' for bitch puppy buyers, and also toys etc)

-be available for you to ring for any 'after sales' advice or if you run into any problems with your puppy or just have a general query.

You shouldn't be 'impressed' by any of the above, it is the bare minumum standard I would expect any decent breeder to adhere to. What I have written above is the minimum you should expect.

If you join the forum on Champdogs, there are a lot of good breeders who can advis eyou and you can 'advertise' in the 'wanted' section.