B*stard bl**dy dog

[anonymousbird]

We have a really lovely 2 year old lab bitch. I chose her, I look after her the vast majority of the time as DH goes to work full time. I walk her, feed her, make a fuss of her, ie. do my best for her to realise that I am fond of her, but also I discipline and do training with her so she knows that I am in charge of her to the same extent as DH is.

HOWEVER, sometimes she just takes the PISS out of me, and is utterly disobedient with me when she feels like it. She is, otherwise, a very well trained dog (trained on the whistle and to respond on first command not after being shouted at 15 times) and quite capable of behaving and doing as she is asked. But if DH is not around, then mostly she could not care less. Behaves like an angel for him of course...

Also, when he is not here - he travels quite a bit - she won't sit with me in the evening, just takes herself off to bed in a huff because darling daddy isn't here...

Is that it? I suspect this situation will never change now? Bastard bloody dog. Do everything I can for it, but also am firm with her to enforce correct order of things. As far as she is concerned, I don't exist!

I shouldn't care really I suppose, but it bothers me!

No, I'd disagree. I don't think 'most' people humanise them - many, yes, but IME not 'most'. Maybe that's just where I live and the company I keep.

I think dogs appeal to us because they are sociable, companion animals, but as soon as you humanise them you are misinterpreting their behaviour and, as I said, that can cause real problems. So much grief could be avoided if people took a little time to understand canine behaviour, rather than just putting a human spin on it and getting it completely wrong. Very sad - for the dog - when that goes wrong.

I've had a GSD and a GSD cross, both of whom have mimicked human behaviour, which adds to the emotion/dog behaviour confusion.

eg. If DP and I are holding hands, the cross will place a paw precisely on his foot and keep it there. If I greet him with a hug, she wraps herself around our legs and lies down.

But they're also very attentive - so lots of 'doe eyed gazing'.

OK then, I'll rephrase - people I know and have met in the past. I honestly have never come across anyone that doesn't project some human qualities onto their pet. I'm not talking about the extreme of dressing them up etc - I'm talking about people saying "awww, he looks so sad" or "oh he loves that toy, doesn't he?", and describing their dogs as loyal companions (loyalty, that's us projecting a human behaviour onto them too, isn't it? Do dogs 'do' loyalty?). Even describing dogs as 'man's best friend' suggests a degree of humanisation, but has always been the phrase of choice when describing dogs.

I think if people didn't believe that animals felt human emotions (sadness, worry, love, devotion etc), we'd probably see a lot more animal cruelty. So if people humanising their pets leads to them being treated more kindly, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. And although I agree that in some circumstances it could be dangerous (misreading body language etc), in general I don't think anyone's pet is likely to suffer because the owner believes he/she loves them

MrsL - you keep banging on about people dressing their dogs up. Is there something you want to share?

I, and several people I know, don't believe that dogs feel love, or sadness, or 'loyalty'. My dogs are bonded to me because I have cared for them since they were 8 weeks old and because pet dogs have been selectively bred to be social animals.

I'm sure some people would say my lab looks sad sometimes, but I know that's just the conformation of his eyes. My crossbreed has quite a stern expression (to some) andconsequently, although she is an entirely non- aggressive dog, she languished for many months in rescue kennels. Had her eyes been set like my lab's, she would have been snapped up very quickly.

And yes, I do think projecting emotions like love and loyalty on to dogs can be harmful. Dogs are among the most abused animals on the planet. Why? Because they come back - because people think they have 'learned a lesson' or have 'forgiven' us. No - we just bred them that way

The very least we owe them is to try to understand their world, and reduce the stresses of making them live in ours.

Don't worry, I can confirm that I have never dressed one of my animals up

But for the sake of not being cruel to my DH, I think I'll let him keep thinking that the dog loves him. Not sure he could go on living if I told him otherwise, and slitting his wrists would make an awful mess of my new carpet (and would no doubt stress out the dog)

Well Bella, all I know is my labrador is very sweet, delightful nature, but also a cheeky b*gger, and is often "depressed" or "sad" or whatever a dog feels when her Master is away.

She utterly adores him, I don't know how else you describe it. He is pretty tough on her with her training etc (we are training to work her) but all I see is her undying love for him?? Follows him everywhere (and not cos he is the source of her food). She can take or leave me, just as a person might really like my husband, but not be that bothered about me.

I am sure I am oversimplifying it, but isn't there something to be said that they have some sort of "emotions" even if it doesn't directly equate to human ones?

They care for and protect their young instinctively, just like we do, so some element of cross over amongst different breeds of animals (we are all animals of course) may at least be a possibility?

Dogs care for their young because if they didn't they would never survive as a species. Darwin etc.

And your lab is a gundog selectively bred to be easily trained and to work closely with the handler. Other breeds have been bred differently.

MrsL - you're laying on the sarcasm a bit thick these days. I hope I am misinterpreting you, cos I cannot think what I could possibly have done to upset you, other than disagree with you

If it helps, cats are as bad. DH hated cats for years before he knew me - absolutely loathed them. Then my tart of a cat, who I'd loved and cared for for years, decided DH was the Best Person Ever, and low and behold DH was a cat fan.

Whoah bella, I think that comment is a bit below the belt - how exactly am I 'laying it on a bit thick'? For a start, I've been posting very little at all 'these days', and I thought it was pretty obvious that my comment was a joke - I don't think DH is planning to slit his wrists as far as I know. I was just trying to stop yet another lighthearted thread being turned into a wonderful MN 'debate' that seems to be so common at the moment. People were just enjoying swapping funny stories about their dogs, and instead end up being told that dogs don't have feelings and we're all kidding ourselves to think otherwise, and now, even better, that we're opening our dogs up to all kinds of abuse just because we think they can feel some form of affection for us.

I think I'm just going to duck out of this now, because your 'laying it on a bit thick' comment has quite offended me, actually. I try my best to be helpful to people on this forum, and you know I sometimes use sarcasm to try and lighten the tone a bit. Obviously I shouldn't bother.

FWIW, it's clear that they can feel stress, anxiety, fear and excitement and create a bond with us, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch that's it possible for them to feel some affection for us. We are only animals ourselves and our human 'emotions' are nothing but chemical reactions in the brain - even the bond between mother and child has been proven to be nothing but a cocktail of chemicals. So until we figure out cross-species communication, I don't see how can anyone know for sure what a dog is feeling at any given moment. If some poor lonely person gets comfort from thinking that their most beloved companion in the world loves them back, I'm glad of that regardless of what the science says.

Whoa yourself, MrsL. That's one heck of a rant. I don't come on here much at all any more either, partly because I am sick of using my experience and studies to help people (or more accurately their dogs) and getting comments like your one about your dh slitting his wrists 'stressing' the dog. And all because I put forward the scientific view, which accords with my own.

I am sorry that you find it so upsetting to be disagreed with, and particularly by someone who has helped you in the past. Your reaction seems very excessive to me, especially as we have shared many funny threads together. But then I've never expressly disagreed with you before.

My 'stressing the dog' comment was in relation to the fact that she's so attached to him - i.e. the whole theme of this thread. Hence the wink. I don't find it upsetting to be disagreed with - I find a direct insult ('laying the sarcasm on a bit thick these days') to be upsetting. Perhaps I am being a bit touchy but I don't consider that a very nice comment to make to someone. I haven't said anything personal about you, I was trying to put my views across in a lighthearted manner. Your comment was aimed directly at me, and was unfair.

Well, I read it as sarcasm, like the comment after Minimu's mention of doggy people. I have no wish to upset you, and I can see why this conversation might touch a nerve for you so I will leave it at that, rather than upset you further.

But just one final thought - if the minority, like Minimu and myself, cannot put forward the scientific view, the behaviourist's view - whatever you want to call it, then it's a sad day. If I took up a new hobby (and I'm not aiming this at you, MrsL) and experienced, qualified people gave me free and comprehensive advice on a website, I'd be grateful. Yet the pervading mood here seems to be that somehow that's divisive or belittling.

Won't be back - best to you & yours x

I like funny stories about dogs and my dd frequently attempts to dress up the dog (and likes to be on the lead when we go out).

I'm a vet, and I know that dogs don't really "do" love and emotions. The problem (although actually, in most cases it isn't really a problem) is that WE are humans, and we can't help but try to relate/ empathise as that is as much our nature.

The vast majority of my dog-adoring clients comment on their pet's moods and emotions- usually harmlessly. We as humans need more to bond than just the practicaities of dog ownership. I agree with Mrs L somewhat in thinking that the bond we create (in our own heads!) helps us to try to relate to and love our animals, so that we treat them well. In short, we relate to them as the humans we are, while they relate to us as the canines they are. As long as in the logical part of our brains, we accept their different take on our relationship and treat them as dogs and not as little humans, I really can't see the problem in a little bit of projection. As much as I do understand the facts about the workings of the canine psyche, I still can't help that sneaky feeling that they are more clued up on human emotions than they would like to let on!

I DO see dogs who become "depressed" after the loss of a fellow canine (or human) companion. Is it outwith the realms of possibilty that dogs have become so socialised and altered from their "wild" status, that they may just be a bit more than just the "wolf in the living room"? If not, why all the move away from the dominance/ pack theories etc??

(and my bitch still loves DH more than me, so there! )

I do not see why a dog can feel fear and anxiety (both human emotions) But not sad.

However don't know much about dogs so just thought I would add to op. My male Labrador is exactly as the op described only I am the center of attention. So maybe try a male dog if you ever get another .

The animal lovers can't fall out Don't say you won't be back Bella, both you and MrsL make a lot of difference on these boards, and have animals best interests at heart which we really need on here sometimes.

I agree whole heartedly with Bella. We are not saying that dogs do not have emotions - duh obviously they do. But it is the fact that we interpret them incorrectly and this can lead to huge issues for the dog.

The dog goes to lie in his bed - we interpret as he doesn't love me in reality his bed is more comfy than the floor by you.

He loves my OH more than me - maybe you OH sits still longer than you in the evening - when your OH is around he gives 100% attention to the dog - actually giving less attention is a novelty and the dog may work harder so look at your training methods carefully

He looks guilty when he does something wrong - now this is an emotion that dogs do not feel. His behaviour may change because he has learnt in the past that if he does a certain behaviour he will get told off. So his behaviour is one of anxiety and fear waiting for the telling off.

I can understand Bellas frustrations and both of us have undoubtly seen harm and suffering to dogs in our line of work due to peoples ignorance. Bella hope you do come back as you have invaluable experience and advice for some of the novice animal owners on here. But I feel your pain exactly!

It's unfortunate people's feelings have been hurt because you are each putting forward theories that are valuable to those of us interested in our K9's behaviour

My vet says GSD's can be near psychic. Whaddya make of that? Honed instincts? I like Jooly's theory of an amount of sociological evolution!

We had a pig once who, after breaking out of her stall, would always go and break the lambs out of theirs before breaking into the feedroom, where they'd all trough to their hearts content.

Enjoyable for the pig, disasterous for the occasional lamb who, incidentally all developed 'pig' like speech patterns and could grunt quite disconcertingly.

Somehow, sometimes there seems to be a level of cross species understanding and communication, I don't believe the intricacies of which could ever be set in stone.