Our "Lovable Labradoodle" just bit and drew blood on 11 yr old DS...

[CantThinkofFunnyName]

Taking puppy out for a walk (12 weeks) and he jumped up and bit his leg. He's quite smitten with trousers, hanging down stuff like dressing gowns, dresses etc and wants to bite them and play tug of war. NB. We do NOT play any tug of war games with him. Sometimes he lets go when we say LEAVE IT or NO but no matter how we try to distract him with proper chew toys, he won't leg go of things he is not supposed to bite.

We brought him straight back from walk and crated him for 15 mins. About to go out again now.

Any other useful advice on how we deal with this please?

1-2-1 trainer said very friendly, amenable etc. Vet said "dominant". DH shouted NO. But pup certainly got a reaction. He certainly sees me as mum. I'm the only one he really obeys at the moment. But then again, I'm the one doing all the research, reading all the books and trying to get the whole family to be consistent. Lots of conflicting advice out there in these situations.

Our pup is particularly inclined to bite ds (also 11). Mostly because ds is just very exciting and is by far the most likely to be up for a game of running around and general madness. Which usually ends in tears as the puppy gets over excited. Then we tell ds off for over exciting him, and explain that it is really unhelpful that he behaves that way and teaches the pup bad habits. When the pup was much smaller we all wore jeans, because puppy bites are so painful. He has learned "NO BITING" fairly well (it is much less of a problem for the rest of the family), and until he hit the teenage mark really got much better (then it came back a bit and we are also waiting for training to get going). I think of our pup as fairly similar to a toddler.

It most certainly is not a power struggle with dh. Sounds like the puppy was trying to play.

Pups don't have power struggles with humans - if they nip you then say 'Ow' loudly and tAke your hands or legs away.

Never push your face into the pup's face and tell it off. You will create an aggressive pup that way.

Tbh, froma a few of the things you have said it does sound like you really don't know what you are doing and may have taken on some of the thoroughly disproven and downright dangerous dominance theory ideas. Please get assistance from a qualified trainer or behaviourist (try APDT website). If you carry on going like this you could ruin your pup for life .

I've been thinking about this overnight and I agree with Bella to an extent. I'm not sure you're fully grasping the concepts needed to manage your puppy's behaviour, which is without exception normal. I know your vet confused matters but you must disregard the suggestion that your pup is in some way trying to dominate or beat you. I am a vet and we do not do any, even basic, training on behaviour. Have a look at the APDT site where you can get reliable advice on training puppies, and find a trainer whose methods are humane and modern.

That site has some really good information on play biting. Thanks. I just checked my puppy's mouth and lots of her adult teeth are coming through which explains why she has been play biting/chewing more than usual. She is 14 1/2 weeks

Morning. Bella and others... I have had a professional, qualified trainer. I have just thoroughly checked the ADPT registered and see their name on there. I have read countless books and researched extensively puppy behaviour. The trainer obviously cannot be with us 24/7 so whilst I think I am doing the right thing at the time, I have on a few occasions sought counsel from this site in a bid to ensure I am going in the right lines or to redirect my training if I need to. I think it is unfair to say "I don't know what I'm doing" and that my methods will create an aggressive dog.

I am a novice puppy owner but I believe I am taking every step possible to ensure that we train him correctly with humane methods.

As posters rightly pointed out, discipline needs to be immediate - hence the speaking very sternly to pup. Let's be honest, that's exactly what we do with our children and it was also recommended by the trainer for when puppy has been extremely naughty or aggressive to a person/member of the family. He WAS aggressive to DH as was growling and baring teeth and barking. That is not behaviour we will accept and whilst he is a baby, that much he has to learn.

Perhaps I'm mistaken in seeking counsel from here and should stick with the trainer's advice. It just seems odd that I am being told left right and centre to go to ADPT when that's exactly what I've done and yet some still think their methods are wrong .

Cantthink, it's all very confusing when you're a first-time puppy owner, and sometimes when you're in the moment and faced with a growling, barking dog the training does go out of the window for a second, it's nothing to be ashamed of and you sound like you're doing the best you can

Your trainer might not have told you, but staring a dog in the eyes is the ultimate act of aggression - they stare each other down when they want to start a fight. Usually if you do stare into a dog's eyes they will look away and turn their head the side, to say "I don't want to fight, please leave me alone". So by holding his face and staring into his eyes, he can't exhibit that behaviour so he might feel cornered and react in a bad way (i.e. snap at your face, or bark at you when you do let him go). He could also start to become fearful of people holding his face, which could lead to fear-based aggression towards other people in the future (i.e. your vet). So that's why people are saying that holding his face and staring at him is bad.

Although you do need to nip the behaviour in the bud (pardon the pun!), you could honestly spend the next three months being stern with him or telling him off, and it won't make any difference whatsoever. It's a phase he will grow out of, whether you are stern with him during this time or not. Puppies don't remember that doing X got them told off last time, they remember that doing Y got them a nice treat. With our dog, even though she was acting aggressively sometimes (rather than simple play biting), we didn't shout at her or try to win any kind of power struggle by staring back at her, ala cesar milan! If she stared at us, we looked away and didn't engage her at all (and she now respects us fully even though this was us apparently being 'submissive' to her, which just shows it's a load of tosh). Basically, if she stared or growled or barked or snapped, we turned away from her and ignored her completely - walking into another room usually. When she followed us, we got out the clicker and treats and did a few rounds of 'sit' to occupy her mind and bring us back into control. It worked 100% of the time - she saw the clicker and wanted to please. She never carried on the bad behaviour, not even once - everything stopped for the clicker and she would turn into a doe-eyed waggy tailed puppy dog instead of the growling, snapping monster she'd been two seconds before - instant transformation! If she did manage to bite us, we used to yelp before ignoring her to let her know she'd hurt us, but after a while it just seemed to spur her on, so we stopped doing it! The snappy phase soon passed once her teething was over, and now she's 12 months old and I honestly can't remember the last time she behaved with the slightest bit of aggression or did any form of play biting. She no longer stares at us (nor does she look away if we look her in the eye, because she knows we're not threatening her), and has learned that barking or growling gets her nothing. If she wants something, she comes and sits nicely. And she no longer hangs off the ears of our older dog - they still play fight but she knows how to be gentle now. Nine months ago I couldn't ever see this day coming and was convinced we'd bought Cujo!

Well, there are dog trainers and there are dog trainers. But taking a pup's head in your hands, putting your face up to it and telling it off just isn't what you do. I'm not going to comment on whether you should do that to children either, except to say that dogs are an entirely different species, so drawing analogies is not helpful.

And I'll stand by 40+ years of owning and working with dogs to say a 12 week old pup can't be aggressive, and that if you think that then no, sadly, you do not know what you are talking about.

One day your intimidating methods may make your pup snap. A sad but common scenario

"Couldn't ever" - wonderful use of grammar there

Thanks MrsL

Poor you. I am also a novice puppy owner and as I said earlier on this thread, my pup has done just the same as yours. I'm trying to stick to the ouch and walk away method but I appreciate that it is v hard when a puppy's needle teeth are sinking into your hand!

Please don't let's get discouraged. And could I just ask that when poster's give advice, that they are a little kinder. The OP is obviously doing her very best and has sought out an ADPT trainer as so many here suggested. I know the advice from experienced dog experts is good and well intended but sometimes it makes us feel rather small to be told we 'don't know what we are doing'

OP - sorry I started reading the thread and then the loony get ridders descended.

We have an 11 week old lab puppy. She has drawn blood several times, mostly my fingers (all my fault, she hasn't learnt/been trained to take titbits gently yet) and a few times on arms/legs - again mostly mine and a couple of times on the dds - again ALL my fault for not interrupting loopy and overexcited AND COMPLETELY NORMAL puppy behaviour at the start.

What I am doing now is:

1. I have taught the dds 'Be a Tree'. When puppy is jumping up and being over-excited they have to stand stock still, fold their arms and tuck their chin in, not looking at the dog. Its amazing how quickly she stops mouthing and jumping up and justs sits still looking up at them with an 'eh? what happened' expression.

2. If she bites too hard during any games then it's game over. We all stop instantly and walk away ignoring her.

3. Lots and lots and lots of "OW!!" plus ignore with hard mouthing at any other times

4)Using house line lots to pull her gently down when being silly.

5. Spotting the signs when the puppy madness decends and sending the dds into another room when she starts.

She really is improving with all of this and is so much less bitey than when we first got her.

hth

MrsL, thanks for your post. Very useful. I was going to ask about using the clicker to distract from undesirable behaviour (this is what I am doing at the moment) but a few people have commented that I am rewarding the growl or the nip rather than 'punishing' it. Its good to know that you and others have used the clicker to distract and go on to reward positive behaviour such as sitting, lying down, staying.

Bella, I'm not having a go at you, its just that there is so much conflicting advice and I feel for the OP in this situation.

Well, I'm certainly not trying to make anyone feel small - my only motive here is to try to ensure that this pup does not end up with beglhavioural issues as a result of well-intentioned but dangerous methods.

More dogs are put to sleep each year because of behavioural issues than medical ones. A sobering thought. And a large % of those problems are avoidable.

Please ignore dreadful grammar - forgot to proof read

Oh CTOFN, I hope we haven't upset you or made you feel criticised.

I think the issue here is that you are not thinking about your pup's motivation, you are simply dealing with the behaviour. It's like treating the symptoms when you need to address the cause, IYSWIM?

Growling and baring teeth, unprompted and when approaching a family member who isn't paying the pup any attention is not aggression. It is a sign of a pup expressing a behaviour in the hope of a reward (in this case your DH's attention) - either because he's testing out new behaviours or because he's previously found that growling and barking achieves a reaction. The pup's motivation isn't to randomly attack or frighten your DH. Its motivation here is to prompt your DH to respond. The nature of the response is irrelevant. A response of any kind means the behaviour has been successful.

Once you understand that the behaviour is normal but undesirable you can cause the behaviour to die out by ensuring it goes unrewarded. IME the lack of a reward (in this case ignoring) is as successful and quick a way of training a little puppy as using any form of aversion (eg grabbing its muzzle), and is much less likely to have side effects such as causing a puppy to become headshy or fear aggressive. Why would the pup even bother to keep barking and growling at your DH if your DH simply ignores it? I reckon you could have this behaviour gone forever within a week provided the pup consistently receives no response.

This period is about building trust and establishing boundaries. Once you can identify your pup's motivation you can establish boundaries by absolutely removing any form of reward for unwanted behaviour - nipping, growling, barking, anything. Ignore, ignore, ignore - walk away and close the door behind you if you have to.

I've gone on a bit here but I really don't want you to feel attacked, I just want to help you understand A) why your pup is behaving this way and B) that your pup is not inherently aggressive. What you describe has no hallmarks of aggression and does not require punishment. IME the fear of aggression on the part of the owner is, ironically, one of the most common causes of fear aggressive dogs - because the owner has misinterpreted normal puppy behaviour and sought to punish it.

I think I mentioned this on your other thread but IMO the single most useful resource for novice puppy owners is The Idiot's guide to Positive Dog Training by Pam Dennison. It is modern, comprehensive and teaches you to "think dog" unlike many other puppy books. I would be astonished if the advice there does not echo the advice from your APDT trainer.

I am sure from the commitment and dedication you have shown so far that your efforts will be rewarded with a lovely family pet, provided you leave behind any notion that your puppy seeks to overcome you

ahh, I see the sensible dog posters are out in force too

The house line (only purchased last week) has been great. She trails it round after her with no problems and when she is jumping up against the sofa or on the dds you can just gently pull her away from the other end (it's 2m long) so there is no personal and reinforcing contact from me.

And I think if you quote me directly, as you did, then you are having a go at me oxocube.

No worries though - like I said, the pup's development is my only concern here.

Thanks OhExpletive, very useful and comprehensive post. Slubber - liking the sound of the houseline. Tbh, the trainer recommended one, but I couldn't find one readily from Pets At Home that was long enough so just figured we we doing ok anyway . Will actively seek one in coming days.

The clicker really does work - the trick is to make them 'sit' first, so they know that's what they're being rewarded for - if you pick up the clicker and treat while they're still barking, that's when you're doing it wrong. Dogs live in the moment (make that 'the second'!) which is why the clicker training works so well. A dog won't think "now, wait a minute, am I being rewarded because I've just sat a second ago, or am I being rewarded for the barking fit I just had?". The clicker makes it very clear to them. I'm not a dog trainer in any sense of the word, and I make lots of mistakes. But honestly I've found the best method to deal with any behaviour is to ignore it, and then redirect the energy into a postive training session, which makes everyone feel better

The thing to remember as well, as bella and oh have said, is that at this age he's not capable of being "aggressive" in the true sense of the word. The word is banded about willy nilly and most people would used to describe a dog that is barking, growling and snapping - but when it's a young puppy it's not really aggression at all, it's just normal puppy behaviour (i.e. they do it to each other). An truly "aggressive" dog is one that, as an adult, will launch itself at a person or snarl and bark at them. So we really shouldn't use "aggressive" when it's not (I herby rename it cujo-esque lol!) The problem with large-breed dogs is that they become very big very fast, so it's easy to forget how young they are. At 12 weeks a puppy is just wanting to engage you in a game of rough and tumble, and thinks that egging you on by growling or nipping is the way to do it. And because he's part lab, he will probably stay very puppyish until at least 2 years old, so it'll get very tiring repeatedly shouting at him or telling him off, and it won't do any good anyway. Ignoring it and diverting attention to something else is best. It is hard to remember that when you're faced with a mini cujo, I know! At about 5 months old, after the initial snapping had passed, mine went through a really difficult stage of ignoring everything I said, clicker or not, and biting me when I told her to 'sit' or 'leave it'. I'm not talking about a playful nip, I'm talking a full-on run and leap at my face - and she was over 20kgs, so no small puppy! One of the times I was sat down, and she bit my nose full force out of nowhere. It bled for ages (still got the scar ) and I wailed like a toddler and proclaimed I hated her because she only ever 'picked' on me, never DH! This is from an 'experienced' owner! The worst thing was I didn't even get any warning, she just seemed to be out to get me - she'd just walk up to me and bite my leg really hard, or be all lovey dovey one minute and then bite the next! At the time I thought we'd inherited the spawn of the devil, but thankfully now she's a sweetheart and is well and truly 'my dog' - she's completely 'meh' about DH which he hates

Herby? Oh dear, I need coffee

Bella - I am very sorry to offend. I have followed loads of your advice since my pup came to us (and that of other posters). Think I will bugger off now before I upset someone else

CTOFN, I have just reread your previous thread about the vet saying your pup was dominant.

I remember now about the trainer suggesting water pistols and neck holds. I think you will find that your trainer is potentially breaching the APDT code of practice by advocating the use of water pistols etc. In particular I am worried that they are suggesting novice owners simply training a young puppy should use these methods. Have a look at the appendix here.

Oxo - like I said, I am not offended. Those who know me know that I am very direct but never malicious or spiteful.

As always, the animal is my only concern.

CTOFT, I got my houseline from PAH it was opposite the standard leads (same aisle) in with the clickers and treat bags - they are all made by the same company CLIX, although I have read that for a cheaper houseline you can just use a length of clothes line.

The other thing I have noticed and I'm completely unsure if the two are related otr not, is that since giving our puppy all her meals in the Kong (I have two large puppy Kongs, I soak about 2/3rds of her kibble and then do a soaked kibble, dry kibble, soaked kibble sandwich and then stick them in the freezer). It takes her about 3/4 of an hour of chewing to extract the food (she loves it btw - super waggly tail). Anyhoo her chewing of other things (trousers, hands, kitchen cupboards) had reduced significantly.

I have no idea if the reduction in chewing is because of the 'soft mouth' training or the kongs or maybe a bit of both. All I know is that it is much much less