The buying of a docked pup

[EcoMouse]

Would you? Does it matter to you?

Example: ESS x JRT, intended as a family pet, not a working dog but legally docked by breeders (with the assumption it would/could work due to breed and parents currently working in their respective fields).

I did, for my mum.

She was a perfect little jack Russel, from a very loving home. I don't know why they had felt it necessary to do her, but as all her jabs were up to date I trusted that they had had it done 'properly'.

I don't agree with it but don't see it as grounds to reject a perfectly good dog.

Personally I wouldn't. Three reasons:

1. Docking is painful and totally unecessary
2. It is illegal except for working dogs - if you are buting it for a pet home it seems doubtful they have tried very hard to find a working home for it, or indeed believed that it was going to work at all
3. If both the parents are working dogs then the puppy will have high drive and too much energy to be content as a family pet. Spaniels are very high energy dogs and Jack Russells are typical little terriers, stubborn and can be difficult as well as tenacious. both wonderful in the right hands, but not a cross breed from two working types in a pet home. Particularly if you have young children there will be much more suitable dogs out there from a rescue or responsicle breeder.

Is the whole tail docked? Our ESS is docked (only the tip) but that is because he will be worked, and the breeder wouldn't have let us have him if she wasn't satisified that we would do so. I would be more dubious about a dog that had the whole tail docked just beacuse of its' breed, rather than its' possibilities. I am wondering what a ESxJRT would actually be able to do! Their characteristics are at the opposite end of the spectrum, in terms of working abilities.

No, never if it was just because of the breed. Highly irresponsible to do so, imo.

yes.

Drusilla, it's a split litter, mother ESS, one ESS father and a JRT father (accidental breeding), this is re one of the resulting ESS types.

Agreed about what a ESS x JRT would actually do in the field!

I wasn't questioning pros and cons of the breeds, I've had both and crosses including each before, working and non working dogs but thank you MP . The parents are dogs from a family home, which also work.

I'll be visiting tomorrow and have a chance to see severity of docking and speak with breeders more thoroughly. TBH, at the moment I feel similarly to coldtits, I'm not sure I see it as a reason to turn down the 'perfect' pup.

Thanks for your opinions, good food for thought.

If it's going to be a true working dog and docking is necessary to prevent injury, then fair enough. But for a family pet, no I wouldn't buy one and I don't think it's right to dock them just because they're 'that' kind of breed. I also agree that a springer x JR wouldn't make a particularly good worker, so I doubt they've been bred for working anyway.

Anyway, one of the biggest joys in life is seeing a dog's waggy tail, and I can't imagine either of my dogs without theirs

X post ecomouse, was wondering if it was an accident!

Sorry, wasn't sure of your 'dog experience'. I see what you mean about turning down 'perfect pup', but presumably you're not in favour of docking or you wouldn't have asked the question, so my thought would be that if you buy a docked puppy you are encouraging the breeders to go on docking in the future. The only way they will stop docking puppies for pet homes is if no one is prepared to buy them. hope you find the right puppy for you.

I would never buy a dog, so many great rescue places, obviously you have to pay a donation, i'm in SE and got ours from pro dogs direct

If you do decide to buy this puppy make sure you get a copy of the docking certification and microchip insertion to prevent you running into any legal problems later on.

MP, please don't apologise! I enjoyed your descriptions and agree.

I'm not in favour of docking, I wouldn't dock a litter but I wouldn't be breeding a working litter and do understand the safety arguments for docking working dogs.

I feel the same about circumcision. I wouldn't do it to my son but wouldn't turn down the right man for that reason alone

I've been on a pup search for months now and this is the first that's appealed (aside from the docking!) picky or what?!

(Unsurprisingly, I'm also single )

Lizcat, good point, thank you.

Some pups, although not all, are docked using the lamb method where a tight elastic band is put around the tail.

I caused a little furore on here last year when I posted that the dog I had been on the waiting list and paid a large deposit for had been docked at birth when I had specifically asked for it remain whole.

I am not pro docking at all, although will be using my dog for field trial/work.

Mine is a half dock, so still plenty to wag.

Only you can decide what is right for you.

I wouldn't buy a dog for working or otherwise that was docked. I especially wouldn't buy a dog from an irresponsibly bred litter, regardless of the docking issue. There are some quite serious health problems that should be tested for in ESS.

My family always has boxers and have always had docked dogs. Their tails are long and thin and they get so excitable that they tend to get smashed off on everything around, we've known boxers who've had to have their tail docked when they're older. Of all the ones we've met with tails one didn't need doing and he was more placid than the average boxer.

My parents bred Springer Spaniels for show for many years and my Mum used to dock them all as very young puppies. It used to be done because working Springer Spaniels would smash their tails against things until the bone split and bled and had to be amputated anyway. A Springer Spaniel wags its tail very fast while working. Even non working Springer Spaniels exhibit the same behaviour and smash their tails aginst furniture etc.

I still think certain breeds should be docked. It is not a cosmetic operation it is/was done for a very good reason.

I know people think it is cruel but my mother explained it this way to me. Stand in front of a table stretch your hand out in front of you at shoulder level and turn the hand over until it faces upwards. Then smack your hand down quickly so the back of your hand and fingers smash against the edge of the table. It hurts!

Now you would not repeat that 10000 times until your hand swelled and bled and the bones in the fingers split along their full length. That is what a Springer Spaniel can do to itself when it is working with a long tail.

ConfuddledDOTcom, your statement really shocked me. My labs have thick otter tails that bash off everything and can clear a coffee table in an instant (and frequently do) but I would never consider docking their tails because of it, any more than I would consider having my cats declawed to stop the furniture getting marked. The only valid reason for docking is safety for working dogs, but even then plenty of dogs (labs included) get along just fine in the field with their tails intact, so it's not a necessity. To have an older dog's tail docked for no other reason than to stop it knocking over the ornaments is very, very wrong IMO.

midori, they've been 'vet checked' but I don't know the specifics. Don't most overbred purebreeds have issues? I'll investigate when I go to see.

I'm not finding it particularly easy to find mix breed puppies with no bull bred in (personal preference!) and of course, maybe I haven't found the right one yet!

I'm not a fan of KC style eugenics so what others might consider 'poor breeding' is quite an important requirement for me.

Confuddles apologies if I've misunderstood your post - after reading abetadad's post I now wonder if you meant they had to get docked because their tails actually got smashed bashing off things, rather than they got docked because they kept breaking things with their tails - less shocked now

'vet checked' just means they have been visually checked by a vet for things liek descended testicles, hernias etc. The vet will not have checked for breed specific problems and obviously will not have checked for hip dysplacia, cannot check for hereditary cataracts etc.

If you want a crossbreed puppy there are dozens in rescue all over the place. Admittedly, some are of unknown parentage and a lot are bull breed mixes, but it is possible to find the type of dog you want in rescue and there is no need to support irresponsible breeders who are the ones contributing to the huge number of dogs put to sleep each year.

midori, I wouldn't expect a rescue to take responsibility for placing a dog with a family with young children and most wont. I'm happy to take on the responsibility myself however, which means buying a pup, privately.

Just a thought, if pure breeding was restricted, maybe there would be more available homes for rescue dogs as well as addressing overbreeding issues, which incidentally, I would view as due to irresponsible breeding.

I don't know where to sit on this one. On the fence probably, but it's not a place I'm used to being

Hmm. I have seen working breeds with split tails and it's a horrible injury and can be difficult to heal. One beautiful dog I remember kept having to come back again and again to have more bits chopped off to try to get it to heal.

On the other hand, people are purposely whelping bitches in Ireland to get round the liegislation, and purely for aesthetic reasons.

I have a breed which used to be docked and my new puppy is not. Having owned a docked one 20 years ago I can't tell you how lovely it is to see how much expression my new pup puts into her tail. It's a huge part of a dog's body language and such a shame to deprive them of that.

I do, however, fully understand that maybe the 'right' puppy has already been docked. A good friend of mine was put in just that position

So, where am I? Still rambling?

As always I guess I would put congenital health screening at the top of my list (as Midori says, that has nowt to do with having a pup vet chekced), and the temperament of the dam, and the quality of the breeder (by which I mean the integrity and values of that breeder, not show results or anything silly like that).

Am aware very little of my answer is relevant. Sorry - has been a v v long day. Best of luck and if this pup is 'right' then don't let the tail (or lack of ) stop you.

Very helpful Bella, thank you having experienced life with an undocked springer cross, I'm struggling to envisage life without one of the most active tails known to dog!

But you're talking about getting a puppy, not dog, and what problems exactly do you expect an 8 week old pup to have from rescue that a privately bred pup won't have? Even rescues that don't usually home to young children may consider it with a puppy and if they don't, then they have other reasons that the responsibility of the child in mind usually.

I think you really have the wrong idea about breeders of pure bred dogs. Most of the 'overbred' pure bred dogs are bred by back yard breeders (the type who most often also breed crossbreeds) who either want a litter from their pet dog or think they can make money, or puppy farmers, who clearly don't care less about any puppy they breed. 'Proper' breeders actually rarely breed and usually do so to continue their lines or when they want a puppy to show. They will also have a waiting list prior to breeding. For most people I know (all pedigree breeders of KC registered dogs) that means one litter every 3-4 years, maybe far less, and at absolute most, one litter a year, but that is the exception rather than the norm. They don't breed often because they are breeding for the right reasons and not to supply demand or make money.