Can someone advise, puppy class, is this normal?

[Clareandjaya]

Hi,

Have recently started taking our 7 month old pup back to puppy class (he had some when younger (he was always very flighty even at these), we carried on training and socialising ourselves which was going great, but when he hit teenagerdom he lost all manners) and I thought he could do with some refreshing (was advised to do this by the trainer over the phone).

Have been to three now, and it is a complete nightmare. Pup screams/whines and pants for England. He seems so distressed. Spends whole lesson frantically trying to chew off lead and spinning around. I have been trying to treat when he displays good behaviour like sitting still for a few moments, but then the hyperactivity continues.Trainer said I am teaching him to continue bad behaviour in class by treating him as he is learning what to do in order to get a treat iyswim?

Trainer said he is taking the mick out of me and every now and then she yells "no" at him in a sharp tone. Pup looks at her for sec then continues.He seems really disturbed. If I try to stroke his head, he bites gently but frantically up and down my arm.

At the end of last session they said I must get him neutured (was planning to anyway) and they were a bit concerned that I have a young child in the house (whom he is wonderful with).

In previous posts, I have stated my concern about pups dominance in house to me, scared of DP. This has improved slowly as have been working very hard on my own behaviour and attitude in the house and I was quite proud of the results.He is still inclined to take the p* but not as much as before.

After class, I now feel terrible, very worried, as though I have a very big problem dog. That is the way it is coming across to me. He disrupts the others from learning and trainer said he is definitely very dominant over me. They seem to think neuturing will solve most of this?

I am not criticiaing the quality of the training, but just wondered of other peoples's experiences in class? All the other dogs are just wonderful.

Clare
xxx

Look for another class. Try the APDT.

Neutering is not a training aid, and although I don't doubt your dog is capable of controlling our behaviour, he is not trying to be or wanting to be dominant over you.

If a trainer told me my dog was trying to be dominant over me I would walk straight out the class . Honestly. It is a hugely outdated and disproven way of thinking, and can do enormous harm.

Sounds like the trainer does not have sufficient skills or knowledge to deal with a boisterous 7 month pup. Look elsewhere.

Castration is only proven to help stop roaming, mounting and some aggression - not general silliness

Sounds like you need to consult a behaviourist rather than a dog trainer. Have a chat with your vet for a recommendation.

Agree with all the others find another class quick.
Do castrate if you want to but not if you want it to create a still quiet puppy I am afraid it wont

Hi,

Thanks for your replies. Kind of what I was thinking myself but just didn't know what is expected, or not, at a puppy class.
I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind...

I looked on the APDT website and the trainer who is local to me works with dogs on one-to-one basis only. Would that be okay, or should there be other dogs/puppies to help with socialising? (We meet other dogs on walks and he is fine- it seems the class/small hall situation stresses him out).

Bella- what are the thoughts that have replaced 'dominance' theory in recent times? I don't doubt that it is outdated and I am really not picking holes, just genuinely interested to understand pups behaviour better.For instance, in the house, without my careful management, pup would- push ahead of me at all times, mouth at my hand if I am not paying him specific attention, drag our elderly cat's bed off it's perch, try to snatch food from me just generally be pushy and shovy. So I am guessing lots of people would say he is being dominant-and I am just anxious to learn what other reasons would attribute to this? Any good books you recommend?

We are planning to neuter anyway as don't want to breed but fully understand that it is not a behaviour solution. Our vets actually disagrees with doing it before the age of 5/6 as they say it inhibits a males natural growth potential. They said they will do it if we really want it done. Has anyone any thoughts on this?

Thanks again

Hi Clare

Dominance theory was based on the idea that dogs behave like wolves (which they don't) and that wolves have a rigid hierarchy (which they don't), which they enforce by conflict (which they don't) and that groups of captive wolves behave in the same way as wild wolves (which they don't ). It has been discredited for many years but sadly there are still some idiots dinosaurs out there who believe that if a pup or dog misbehaves then it is trying to dominate its owner, and that if the owner shows the dog that she (the owner) is dominant, then all the training will somehow miraculously fall into place. Pretty barking ,tbh. Moreover, if you use some of the domianance techniques on most dogs - who are not dominant in personality - then you can do a great deal of harm and actually end up with a fearful, aggressive dog.

The behaviour you describe is pup who - please don't take this the wrong way - simply has not been taught manners. Not a pup who is trying to dominate you. They are like toddlers, and need to learn what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. If your toddler pulled the cat off its perch, you wouldn't think your toddler was dominant, would you? A good trainer will help you create a happy, obedient and well-mannered dog.

A really good book is Jean Donaldson's The Culture Clash. Avoid Cesar Millan and Jan Fennell.

Minimu is a professional dog trainer and will advise you on whether to seek group training, or one-to-one, or both.

Re castration - double check the age your vet suggests castration. There is some argument, especially in larger breeds, for waiting until the dog has stopped growing before castration, as testosterone helps close the growth plates and castrating too early can lead to over-long limbs and increased risk of hip dysplasia, but that would only mean 18 months or so, not 5 years.

HTH

I am not Bella, but a good book to read is 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson, also some of the Karen Prior clicker training books are good, and 'Don't Shoot The Dog'.

Dogs are basically in it for themselves, so if they do something it is because it is being inadvertantly re-inforced or rewarded in their environment. (So, if they steal something and that prompts you to shout at them and chase them trying to get said item back, the dog is therefore rewarded for the behaviour (eg. it is fun for the dog) and the dog will keep 'stealing' things. If they keep emptying the bin it is because the first time they did it they found tasty morsels/interesting and different stuff to chew, so they will keep doing it) If they don't do something you ask it is either because they don't understand or because they are not sufficiently motivated to comply. (So, if your dog pulls on the lead and you ask him to 'heel' but he doesn't, he eithr hasn't learnt what heel means, ro he finds pulling more rewarding, probably because he assumes it gets him there quicker than whatever you are offering him if he does 'heel' or that pulling is sufficiently rewarding to outweigh the punishment he will recieve if he doesn't stop pulling, for instance, a yank on a choke chain. (I am not advocating the use of choke chains!))

As for the general pushyness. Puppy are liek that. Dogs are naturally opportunistic, and puppies, just like human children, try and push the boundaries and explore what it is and isn't ok to do. He rushes through doors because he wants to know what is on the other side. After all, it could be really exciting. He tries to snatch food because dogs are naturally scavengers and would eat at every opportunity and he hasn't yet learnt that trying to get your food will get him nowhere so is pointless, or an alternate behaviour, or he has at some point succeeded in either getting some food that way, by stealing or because you gave it to him. Mouthing is the same, I expect it eventually gets him attention at some point, maybe negative attention (telling off) but attention none the less.

Hope this helps a little.

Oh, and most training is now on a positive, reward based approach - encouraging the dog by use of rewards to do what we want it to do, rather than forcing or coercing it. Or it should be - like I said, there are still some very misinformed trainers out there who can ruin your dog for life, so do be careful who you choose.

x post, Midori: we are singing from the same hymn sheet anyway

Thankyou...

That helps me understand him so much better.I have had so much of the dominance theory banded about recently it has made me panicky and stopped me enjoying him the way I should because I have been thinking he is trying to rule the roost. I will look at it all in a different light.

Whilst you are all around can I please just ask for one more bit of help..

Pup picks up new things quickly, but decides whether or not he wants to do them. Recall is the worst. He used to be great, now I can't risk him off the lead except in enclosed garden etc. We practise at home, and when out we put him on a long line and practise and if he doesn't come, reel him in and treat him. We've done this for quite some time and no real improvement- he comes when he feels like it. We use fresh meat/cheese and I smile, use an excited voice and leap around like a fool. But he is NO fool...

Any advice?

Change classes. That one sounds dreadful.

In terms of recall, if he's not very food orientated it might be worth trying waggling a special toy that he only gets when he comes back? I don't think I'd reel him in tbh - might be sending mixed messages.

I would go for the one to one training myself. As your dog seemed a bit hyper in a class situation get the basic training sorted and then introduce dogs as a distraction. I expect the trainer will have their own dogs they can use for this

oh, with the dog class, one time when pup was whining and spinning, the teacher came up with a bottle of water at her side and said "this is what you do to give them a short, sharp shock" and proceeded to squirt the water straight away in pups face.

Now as it happens, we tried water when pup was little and found it didn't work for him- he enjoyed it. But I didn't get the chance to tell her that, she just did it.

After class, anothr lady said to me that she was so glad that teacher had not done that to her dog as her dog is a rescue who is terrified of water for some reason and will tremble under a chair if water is squirted in the vicinity.

So, whilst I am not anti the use of water, I guess it makes sense to check with any teacher what methods they will use in advance as it may be something you don't want to use in your own home? or should you go along with method teacher uses?

Scary thing is, this dog trainig class is a big, popular concern in the area. It is a full-on club with agility and other areas to branch into and has been used by many I know so part of me thought, it must be me...

Yes, it's really quite scary how many bad trainers there are out there. A good trainer will be very happy for you to sit in on a class on your own first, so that you can see their methods.

Your puppy is lucky - you've got away. Others won't realise there are better alternatives, and when you remember that more dogs are destroyed because of behavioural problems than through illness or injury, it's really quite depressing

A great book is The complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training. (second edition)by Pamela Dennison.

This explains really well why positive dog training works and how you dog learns. Also gives clear ways to train dogs in everyday situations.

It is easy to read but explains well the positive training methods and reinforcement and side effects of punishments etc etc. I suggest you lend it to the old dog trainer when you have finished with it!